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MadMax

Passing Runner, ala Beavers vs. Wildcats

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As is the nature of things, when something weird happens in baseball on the televised stage, it shows up again on the local level soon after.

R1, 0 Outs. LHB, so there’s a slight shift on. Tight ballgame, and OT is trailing, so is looking to advance runners. DT is keyed to turn a DP. Odd pitch and an odd swing, and the pop fly arcs down the 3BL/LFL. R1 retreats to the bag, either in a moment of frozen confusion or to tag up. BR bolts out of the box and, as a pretty fast runner, is already at 1B and rounding it as the F5, F6, and F7 are converging on the ball’s eventual landing point.

My PU partner has the line, and has to determine Fair/Foul first. I’m in B, but trying to position myself in a makeshift working area so I can see the ball (somewhat) and 1B (more so) and R1 and BR. I know my partner, and if he’s got Foul, I do not doubt I will hear him. As the fielders make an attempt to catch the landing ball, I see BR round 1B and pass the statuesque R1.

The catch wasn’t made, and the ball is judged Foul. BR slows and returns to the batter’s box; R1 hadn’t budged, and his 1BC starts talking to him about reading, and tagging, and whatnot. Pretty routine and anti-climatic, no? BR passing R1 is meaningless because it was a Foul ball.

What if it had been caught? Again, meaningless, because the BR is out and is a retired runner.

But what if it had been uncaught and judged Fair?

So my question is, how do you, as BU, call BR passing R1? What mechanics / audibles do you use? BR is out for passing, this much I/we know, and as such, the force is OFF on R1 to 2B, but none of the participants – OT or DT – may know that. 

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Just because it's interesting to think about, what if R1 retreats, BR rounds 1B and passes R1, and then R1 gets a better read or some coaching and takes off, re-passing BR, all before the ball lands fair?  Still out for passing, same signal, but probably far more likely to lead to something dumb.

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24 minutes ago, CJK said:

Just because it's interesting to think about, what if R1 retreats, BR rounds 1B and passes R1, and then R1 gets a better read or some coaching and takes off, re-passing BR, all before the ball lands fair?  Still out for passing, same signal, but probably far more likely to lead to something dumb.

I had a similar play last summer. Top of the 1st, R1 no outs. Can of corn to center field, R1 retreats to 1B as the BR rounds 1B. F8 drops the fly ball and when I look over at my runners the BR is 15 feet past R1. I pointed with my left hand and said/yelled "That's passing, batter's out! Batter's out!" with my right arm raised in a hammer. This is tough because everyone knows I called somebody out, but they really aren't paying close attention. R1 started to slowly jog towards second base as the defense stood around looking confused. I started to jog closer to second base to be ready for a play, indicating to everyone that R1 hadn't been retired without actually saying so. Eventually the DTHC got the memo and shouted "Somebody tag him please!" 

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1 hour ago, MadMax said:

So my question is, how do you, as BU, call BR passing R1?

 

57 minutes ago, noumpere said:

<point> "That's passing.  #xx is out." <fist in the air>

My training was "He passed him!" for the verbalization. Otherwise, this.

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So, my first assumption is you are waiting for fair/foul before announcing anyone passed anyone, right?   It's not "batter out if fair"?  Well, it is, but you don't announce it that way, right?

 

Also - If the ball is caught in fair territory, after the batter passes R1, is the batter out for passing or for the caught ball?  I'm assuming whatever happened first? Or does it matter?  That would be important in determining - and letting everyone know - if the runner has to tag up....or is the runner required to tag up regardless?

Edit - In looking at the rules I don't see anything that would nullify the runner's requirement to tag up - the batter being called out doesn't nullify the "catch", nor the rules around it - no different than an infield fly - but I'll still ask to be sure.

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BR is out on the catch, R1 is liable to be put out on appeal if he fails to retouch on the caught fly ball.

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17 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

So, my first assumption is you are waiting for fair/foul before announcing anyone passed anyone, right?   It's not "batter out if fair"?  Well, it is, but you don't announce it that way, right?

 

I wouldn't announce "if fair" (as we do for an infield fly), but I might point at the action to let everyone know I saw it (not that anyone will be looking at the umpire in this situation).

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Am I right that it is absolutely nothing until the status of the batted ball is determined? Fair/foul and caught/uncaught all need to be determined before the status of the runners is determined, correct?

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Same situation?

R1, fly ball hit down the RF line, R1 is tagging. BR trots passed 1B thinking the ball will be caught. F9 drops the ball. Are we calling BR out for passing?

Sorry, wrong thread!

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1 hour ago, Mussgrass said:

Am I right that it is absolutely nothing until the status of the batted ball is determined?

You're right if you mean that there's no call to make, and that the fair/foul caught/uncaught judgement may change what call you make.

You're not strictly 100% semantically correct, though, because BR passed R1, which is something.  The offense can't "correct" the passing error before the fair/foul caught/uncaught judgement and avoid the penalty.  It's still passing, it just might not be penalized.

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1 hour ago, CJK said:

You're right if you mean that there's no call to make, and that the fair/foul caught/uncaught judgement may change what call you make.

You're not strictly 100% semantically correct, though, because BR passed R1, which is something.  The offense can't "correct" the passing error before the fair/foul caught/uncaught judgement and avoid the penalty.  It's still passing, it just might not be penalized.

That's what I meant. We need to wait to see what happens to the ball to see what out, if any is called. But we do acknowledge the passing as soon as it happens.

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2 hours ago, Tborze said:

Same situation?

R1, fly ball hit down the RF line, R1 is tagging. BR trots passed 1B thinking the ball will be caught. F9 drops the ball. Are we calling BR out for passing?

Sorry, wrong thread!

Nah, this can be addressed here...

"Trots passed [sic] 1B..." is ambiguous, because by rule regarding 1B, a BR is allowed to proceed past 1B and return directly without liability. Also, two runners can occupy the same base, safely, until they are tagged, whereupon we rule/call one of them out (or the bag they are otherwise forced to is touched by/with the ball). So if BR runs through the bag and peels to the right, making no attempt towards 2B, we've got nothing. We'll probably hear 1BC (and everyone else) telling R1 to get his a$$ in gear.

If, however, you see BR round 1B and visibly overtake R1, still (inexplicably) glued to 1B, then you've got (and should call) passing.

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I called this a year or two back in a 14u Pony game.

Solo, in the working area and watched as B/R passed R1. I just pointed and announced that passing, your out. When the play ended, I called time, pointed again to the B/R who committed the error and reiterated "you're out for passing." 

Then I got to have the coach conversation... never heard of such a rule... are you sure? That is in the book? yadda...

 

 

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