F3 helmet failure

[kylejt]

My son just texted me that the Padres catcher took an off center shot to his F3 helmet, and the springs broke. I always wondered would would happen on a blow that wasn't head on. Anyone else see that? 

[Tksjewelry]

My son just texted me that the Padres catcher took an off center shot to his F3 helmet, and the springs broke. I always wondered would would happen on a blow that wasn't head on. Anyone else see that? 

Maybe someone will post a link, I'd be interested as its the one I'm considering since they discontinued my beloved Wilson.

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[MadMax]

I’d need to see the actual footage to confirm it, but certain impacts, especially at an acute angle can overwhelm the springs / a spring. For starters, I wasn’t aware a Padres catcher was equipped with a Force3 Defender HSM.

In any case, I had to service a Defender HSM which had taken such a shot, the left flank of the cage had caved in and locked up the springs. The owner / user said the he never felt the impact (beyond the “huh, I got hit” reaction), so the unit did its job. I removed the retaining screws, and as soon as the cage was free of the shell, the shell snapped back to its proper shape, and the cage sprung laterally outward like a fouled watch spring. All that energy was still trapped in the cage, and it was deforming the shape of the shell. I was going to send it to Tony, but instead called Force3 (and got Jason on the phone), and they sold us a replacement cage for less than what Tony would have charged to true it.

As I told @Tksjewelry earlier, the Defender HSM is conceptually really good, but it’s not perfected. Because they couldn’t afford the risk of a NOCSAE review not giving the Defender a passing grade, Force3 had to use an existing shell planform that had already passed NOCSAE, and then shoehorn their spring suspension system to fit. Instead, they could/should have perfected their spring system to be as functionally correct as possible, then shaved weight by designing a shell to support it.

Different than the Shock FX, though, the Defender HSM’s spring assemblies and skeleton are metal, so they can not only take some abuse, but they can be repaired or bent back. The Wilson Shock FX’s housings were cast plastic.

[gnhbua93]

I don't see any spring break, what I saw is a bent mask.

[kylejt]

I like the design of the helmet, simply because they extend the cage to the forehead.

[BT_Blue]

7 hours ago, MadMax said:

 For starters, I wasn’t aware a Padres catcher was equipped with a Force3 Defender HSM.

Pretty sure this isn't correct. I posted about it when I saw it during a spring training game. Think you even responded to it.

But I do like the design of his cage.

[gnhbua93]

To add up more, I wouldn't call it failure because the catcher stayed in the game, wearing the Force3 mask with a helmet.

I think that the San Diego Padres believe in Force3 Pro Gear products.

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[BT_Blue]

1 hour ago, gnhbua93 said:

To add up more, I wouldn't call it failure because the catcher stayed in the game, wearing the Force3 mask with a helmet.

I think that the San Diego Padres believe in Force3 Pro Gear products.

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Starting to think quite a few teams, and MLB/MiLB as a whole, are starting to believe in Force3 Pro Gear.

[scrounge]

I was going to start another thread, but seems appropriate to put it here. Going to Ump-Attire to see if they have the F3 in stock yet, it no longer says "Out of Stock" for the F3 Defender helmet/HSM. It now says "This item is discontinued and will not be available." I was really considering going with that, too.

[gnhbua93]

6 hours ago, scrounge said:

I was going to start another thread, but seems appropriate to put it here. Going to Ump-Attire to see if they have the F3 in stock yet, it no longer says "Out of Stock" for the F3 Defender helmet/HSM. It now says "This item is discontinued and will not be available." I was really considering going with that, too.

@scrounge why you don't contact F3 directly then?

[scrounge]

2 hours ago, gnhbua93 said:

@scrounge why you don't contact F3 directly then?

I plan to, just saw it on ump-attire last night. But even if they have it for sale, I would be very wary of buying a discontinued product. Is it being discontinued because it's being reengineered? Lack of demand? Did it not perform as well as they thought? How will support for it happen going forward? Etc.....not sure they'd say even if contacted.

[conbo61]

44 minutes ago, scrounge said:

I plan to, just saw it on ump-attire last night. But even if they have it for sale, I would be very wary of buying a discontinued product. Is it being discontinued because it's being reengineered? Lack of demand? Did it not perform as well as they thought? How will support for it happen going forward? Etc.....not sure they'd say even if contacted.

I noticed that they are out of stock of all of the F3 traditional masks as well.

Is there an issue with the manufacturing?  I would interested to know WHY the helmet was discontinued.

[scrounge]

8 minutes ago, conbo61 said:

I noticed that they are out of stock of all of the F3 traditional masks as well.

Is there an issue with the manufacturing?  I would interested to know WHY the helmet was discontinued.

I contacted Ump-Attire and got a clarification....their wording on the website is confusing. The product itself isn't being discontinued, rather they have chosen not to carry the F3 helmet in light of low sales. An entirely reasonable decision, but a decision not to carry isn't the same as the product itself being discontinued. 

No update on the lack of availability of the F3 mask, but that appears to be an inventory issue across all vendors.

[gnhbua93]

I noticed that they are out of stock of all of the F3 traditional masks as well.
Is there an issue with the manufacturing?  I would interested to know WHY the helmet was discontinued.

I'm pretty sure that is a supply demand situation. To much demand and not much supply. The only issue with manufacturing is IMO that the factory can't make it fast enough as the buyers want it. Buyer think about buying it today and want it for yesterday.

And as Mad Max says F3 is a very innovative company that listens.

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[wolfe_man]

I did find a sports store in Texas that has the F3 V2 masks in stock still.   If you want something and are willing to look hard enough, you will generally be rewarded with finding it. 

[BT_Blue]

Ump-Attire is also going to be doing a "State Of The Union" Facebook post in a few hours. And one of the topics listed is Force3.

So we may get a better idea then.

[JimKirk]

F3 V2 traditional masks are in route to New York - then to us by Monday or Tuesday - IF all goes well with the weather. Force3 can't make enough for what we're needing to fulfill orders. We order a ton at a time and they go right back out of the warehouse. MLB umpires are using the mask, MLB catchers are using the mask - and the demand is off the charts.

The helmets - we're seeing umpires going BACK to the traditional masks and a slow sale of the F3 helmet. Business 101 comes into play. We carry what the umpires want.

Hope this helps.

[MadMax]

In light of what @Scott K shares (and thanks for doing so; not enough companies are transparent with information like this), I think the Defender-HSM is going to face a paradigm shift. The Defender TM is at an ideal point in its development, and fueled by exposure via The Most Highly Prized Real Estate In Baseball (the catcher & PU in a televised MLB game), demand, use and sales are going to skyrocket. The HSM version, though, is going to be challenged since no MLB catchers wear it. It had to be NOCSAE -compliant, and as such, Force3 erred on the side of using an existing NOCSAE-approved planform and bolting their spring system to it instead of optimizing their spring system and fitting a shell around it.

Catchers still do two things that cause current HSMs to be in the form they are – they throw with them on, and they dump them on the ground. Umpires do neither of these things.

If I could advise Force3, I’d advocate for creating a “design fork”, and treating an umpire’s requirements as completely different than the (amateur) catcher’s requirements. This would result in two different designs – one for catcher and one for umpire – with neither of them looking like the current NOCSAE -approved Defender HSM.

And for those new to this topic, NOCSAE compliance has no relevance or bearing upon us as umpires. Amateur catcher’s gear (HS and other institutional ball, such as LL and USA Baseball) has to have NOCSAE compliance.

[BT_Blue]

22 minutes ago, MadMax said:

The HSM version, though, is going to be challenged since no MLB catchers wear it.

This is not correct. As stated at. The start of this thread, and in earlier ones this year. Austin Hedges still wears his Force3 HSM. Of course, that is on the same lines as A.J. Ellis being the only Wilson catcher, but wears a traditional mask. The statement still holds true.

[MadMax]

3 minutes ago, BT_Blue said:

This is not correct. As stated at. The start of this thread, and in earlier ones this year. Austin Hedges still wears his Force3 HSM. Of course, that is on the same lines as A.J. Ellis being the only Wilson catcher, but wears a traditional mask. The statement still holds true.

Alright, I made a generality and overlooked that Hedges – catching for the Padres – wears a Defender HSM with a custom cage. Pardon me. How did the Nike Titanium (Icon) get so desired and popular? It was Jorge freakin’ Posada who propped it on his head. How did the All-Star MVP 2500/4000 catch fire as the HSM for every amateur catcher to own and use? It was Buster freakin’ Posey’s baby-face that it’s been protecting!

Wilson terminated a perfectly good HSM model – the Shock FX – primarily because no catchers wanted to buy and use it. Then again, their own sponsored catcher – AJ Ellis, as you pointed out – didn’t wear it either! And despite the new Pro Stock’s considerable advantages and improvements, Ellis still doesn’t wear it (and Wilson lies about it on their website).

In any case, let’s revisit the core of the topic, and therein we’ll find the moral of the story – whether the springs got overwhelmed or not, or that Hedges had to go fetch a TM and a hardhat to finish the game, the fact that he was able to finish the game speaks volumes.

[BT_Blue]

38 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Then again, their own sponsored catcher – AJ Ellis, as you pointed out – didn’t wear it either! And despite the new Pro Stock’s considerable advantages and improvements, Ellis still doesn’t wear it (and Wilson lies about it on their website).

Wait... you mean the Big Yellow W is selling a bill of goods regarding protective equipment? About time those catchers get treated the same way we have for the last 20 years.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Force3 comes out with. Would love to see the extended cage that Hedges wears being standard. Especially if they take the route you suggested and do an umpire version as well as a catcher version.

[scrounge]

I just doubt the market is big enough to devote considerable resources for an umpire-only model.

[JimKirk]

You're welcome for the feedback.  Obviously, I don't get on here that much due to all of the other things we're doing here at Ump-Attire.com

We're always trying to do what's BEST for our customers at ump-attire.com. We take a TON OF PRIDE in being the best at servicing the umpires, referees and officials.

Safe travels!