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Guest Mike J

Walk off hit???

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Guest Mike J

Tie game, bottom 9, bases loaded, 1 out, OF shallow. Batter hits deep fly ball over LF's head...should be game over. But runner at 1st is on 1b to tag in case the ball is caught. Batter/runner who knows ball is over the LF's head runs right by the runner at 1st and everyone starts celebrating...including the runner at 1st who never goes to touch 2nd.  If the umps see this, what's the call?

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@MadMax, that's the way the rule used to read and how the high school rule still technically reads (though HS requires all runners touch their bases, not just R3/BR).

For instance, here's OBR 5.08(b):

Quote

When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without liability of being put out, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

NCAA now uses language like OBR's, "...any other play with the bases full which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without liability of being put out."

The key is without liability of being put out, as in a walk, CI or HBP, etc.

The play @Jimurrayrefers to with the security person was August 9, 2015 Cincinnati vs. Arizona, when the rule at the time said that the game is over when, with the bases loaded, the runner forced to advance from third touches home and BR touches first. It said nothing explicitly about how the runner was forced to advance, though it implied the without liability of being put out (just without stating as much). Rules Committee didn't like how that game ended (single to outfield where ball was picked up by a security person where R2 and/or R1 didn't touch their bases and defense wanted to appeal, but Vanover said game was over because of R3/BR touches), so they added without liability of being put out to make the requirement more narrow: a base hit no longer qualifies for the R3/BR touches = game over rule (or, rather, it is no longer possible to interpret the rule to allow for a single with the bases loaded to be subject to the R3/BR touch = game over rule).

As a result of the 2015 play, MLBUM added the following interp to really drive the point home:

Quote

When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, with the bases full as the result of any play other than those set forth in 5.08(b) [former 4.09(b)], the ball is in play and runners may be retired. If the third out is a force play, no runs shall score.

 

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When you say runs by the runner at 1st, do you mean BR overran first, or rounded it and passed the runner?

In either case, if R2 advanced to 3B and R3 scored, it's meaningless as there would only be one out possible on the play. Game over.

If R2 didn't advance, then there would be the possibility of an inning-ending double play (on R1 and R2, if the defense executes in the correct order) if BR didn't pass R1. If BR did indeed pass R1, that's some heads-up baserunning as it removes the force and the game is over.

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37 minutes ago, Matt said:

 If BR did indeed pass R1, that's some heads-up baserunning as it removes the force and the game is over.

It *could be* heads up baserunning, but it's more likely dumb luck.  ;)

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58 minutes ago, Matt said:

When you say runs by the runner at 1st, do you mean BR overran first, or rounded it and passed the runner?

In either case, if R2 advanced to 3B and R3 scored, it's meaningless as there would only be one out possible on the play. Game over.

If R2 didn't advance, then there would be the possibility of an inning-ending double play (on R1 and R2, if the defense executes in the correct order) if BR didn't pass R1. If BR did indeed pass R1, that's some heads-up baserunning as it removes the force and the game is over.

If the BR was not out for passing the bolded would be correct in NCAA, not correct in OBR and up to debate in FED.

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4 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

If the BR was not out for passing the bolded would be correct in NCAA, not correct in OBR and up to debate in FED.

I'm not viewing this as an appeal play, as I'm working on the assumption that we are not dealing with abandonment and that both runners in question were holding the bag for potential tag-ups.

 

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5 minutes ago, Matt said:

I'm not viewing this as an appeal play, as I'm working on the assumption that we are not dealing with abandonment and that both runners in question were holding the bag for potential tag-ups.

 

Ah, live action outs. Yes order would matter.

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Guest Mike J

You could actually go watch this as it happened yesterday. This was the end of the UofA walkoff win over Oregon St. It didn't appear that anyone noticed it and the game ended without any issue. But when they showed the replay, the Batter/runner did pass R1 and then the celebration ensued and it appeared that R1 never made it to 2nd base. (And who knows what happened to R2 since there was no video of this). But it is my belief that the umpire should have immediately ruled the B/R out for passing R1. And since R2 never made it to 2nd, OSU could have either tagged 2nd for the force or tagged the runner for the out. The question I have is, if the ump would have called the batter/runner out for passing R1, would that immediately have removed the force from 2nd(although it wouldn't have mattered if OSU had tagged him as UofA was celebrating the walkoff win in a pile). It seems to me that a case could have been made for an inning ending double play and extra innings. 

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1 hour ago, Guest Mike J said:

You could actually go watch this as it happened yesterday. This was the end of the UofA walkoff win over Oregon St. It didn't appear that anyone noticed it and the game ended without any issue. But when they showed the replay, the Batter/runner did pass R1 and then the celebration ensued and it appeared that R1 never made it to 2nd base. (And who knows what happened to R2 since there was no video of this). But it is my belief that the umpire should have immediately ruled the B/R out for passing R1. And since R2 never made it to 2nd, OSU could have either tagged 2nd for the force or tagged the runner for the out. The question I have is, if the ump would have called the batter/runner out for passing R1, would that immediately have removed the force from 2nd(although it wouldn't have mattered if OSU had tagged him as UofA was celebrating the walkoff win in a pile). It seems to me that a case could have been made for an inning ending double play and extra innings. 

B/R getting called out would negate the force of R1/R2 - then it would come down to whether or not R3 touched home plate before R1 or R2 were (hypothetically) tagged....and since the ball was hit over the head of the outfielder I'm thinking R3 scored in plenty of time.

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And the lack of any live ball action or a double appeal attempt by the defense precludes what could have be an interesting caseplay for @Gil.

Without the out call for passing what if the defense properly played on R2 and R1? 

If R3 didn't delay and the winning run scored before the passing, is the passing not an out and are R1 and R2 still forced to accomplish their baserunning responsibilties and subject to .being called out on appeal. 

 

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Guest Mike J
1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

B/R getting called out would negate the force of R1/R2 - then it would come down to whether or not R3 touched home plate before R1 or R2 were (hypothetically) tagged....and since the ball was hit over the head of the outfielder I'm thinking R3 scored in plenty of time.

Not sure about that...once B/R occupies 1b after the legal touch and then passes R1, the force is still in play UNTIL the ump makes this call. If OSU had gotten to the bag for the force, I don't see how the offense could benefit from a baserunning blunder of B/R passing the runner who would then be declared safe because of the force no longer in effect. 

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18 minutes ago, Guest Mike J said:

Not sure about that...once B/R occupies 1b after the legal touch and then passes R1, the force is still in play UNTIL the ump makes this call. If OSU had gotten to the bag for the force, I don't see how the offense could benefit from a baserunning blunder of B/R passing the runner who would then be declared safe because of the force no longer in effect. 

Yes, but you asked what happens if the ump called B/R for passing R - if the forced is removed.  I answered that question.  At that point, when the batter passes the runner (and is correctly ruled out), the force is off.   ie. the out occurs at time of infraction, not when the ump calls it

As you allude, conversely, if R1 was tagged out (or second base was tagged) before B/R passed R1, then B/R can't be called out for passing R1, as he would be retired.   They can't have it both ways.  Either the runner is out, meaning the batter didn't pass anyone, or the batter is out, meaning there's no more force.

Likewise, if either B/R or R1 are out, R2 is no longer forced either, so any wondering about that is moot, as long as R3 has touched home.

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15 minutes ago, Guest Mike J said:

Not sure about that...once B/R occupies 1b after the legal touch and then passes R1, the force is still in play UNTIL the ump makes this call. If OSU had gotten to the bag for the force, I don't see how the offense could benefit from a baserunning blunder of B/R passing the runner who would then be declared safe because of the force no longer in effect. 

Outs happen when they happen, not when they are called.

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Guest Mike J

If that's the case then are you saying that the moment B/R passes R1, then it would have been impossible for there to be another out called that would have precluded R3 from scoring the winning run...regardless of whether or not R1 or R2 touch their next forward bag? I'm just wondering if OSU may have had claim to a double play because of what I thought was very poor baserunning and execution by UofA on that last play. You saw what I saw on that play. Just wondered if there was a screw up that could have cost them if noticed. It was a potentially interesting situation that nobody seemed to notice. Thanks!

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1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

If R3 didn't delay and the winning run scored before the passing, is the passing not an out and are R1 and R2 still forced to accomplish their baserunning responsibilties and subject to .being called out on appeal.

Let me ask you this - let's say it was only R3 on base...if after R3 scores, and after B/R successful touches first base he rounds it and just hammers F3 or F4 into next week, would you still call MC, or was the game over when R3 and BR touched their bases?

I'm thinking that even though the "winning" run scored that B/R could continue to advance bases normally (even when he can't be credited with more than a single) and be subject to any possible base running infractions therein - even if they end up moot.

OR, in a scenario where all runners are running normally - ie. not celebrating a walk off win - and let's say R1 or R2 trips before reaching their base - if B/R rounds first (without passing a runner) I'm thinking the defense could (stupidly) tag him, which would then also negate any force - that is, until all the action is complete, everything's live....?

We do know that if the winning run is R3 B/R can only get a single.  But let's say it was R1/R2, and R2 came around to score, B/R can conceivably be credited with a double...so I would assume he can be called out for passing a sleeping R1...or get tagged out which would negate any force on R1 who may have tripped.   

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26 minutes ago, Matt said:

Outs happen when they happen, not when they are called.

So if U1 saw the passing as inconsequential and the defense properly played on R2, called out by U3 and R1, called out by U2, with the PU then waving off the run, U1 would then have to let everyone know the forces were off. That would have been messy. 

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Goto the 1:28 mark, and you'll see something significant. R1 is off the bag – just a few steps. At 1:28, two crucial things have happened, and one other "crucial" thing has yet to happen. BR has touched 1B. R3 has (presumably) touched Home Plate. BR has not yet passed R1 (he's about to). With the first two satisfied, the game is over. Now, with BR passing R1 after touching (and achieving) 1B, BR is (or could have been called) Out. As the others have mentioned, this removes the Force Out, and any further tags or appeals would result in a Time Play Out, and R3's run would have still stood.

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Thanks for the heads up @Jimurray.

Let's get GHSA's opinion on this... ;)
(for reference, though it's NFHS:  Ask the UEFL - Protested Game-Ending Appeal Force Play )

Assuming umpires saw BR pass R1, then BR is out & there's no force at 2B. Score the run.
Assuming umpires did not see BR pass R1, then R2 could be appealed out at 3B followed by R1 out at 2B. No score.
Appealing R1 before R2 would take the force away from R2. Score the run.

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Guest Mike J
18 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Goto the 1:28 mark, and you'll see something significant. R1 is off the bag – just a few steps. At 1:28, two crucial things have happened, and one other "crucial" thing has yet to happen. BR has touched 1B. R3 has (presumably) touched Home Plate. BR has not yet passed R1 (he's about to). With the first two satisfied, the game is over. Now, with BR passing R1 after touching (and achieving) 1B, BR is (or could have been called) Out. As the others have mentioned, this removes the Force Out, and any further tags or appeals would result in a Time Play Out, and R3's run would have still stood.

Yes but R3 was presumably tagging from 3rd(to be safe) and likely wouldn't have scored before B/R passes R1. So depending on the status(force) of R1 after that would determine how that 3rd out may have been made. Just saying it could have gotten interesting. 

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1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Goto the 1:28 mark, and you'll see something significant. R1 is off the bag – just a few steps. At 1:28, two crucial things have happened, and one other "crucial" thing has yet to happen. BR has touched 1B. R3 has (presumably) touched Home Plate. BR has not yet passed R1 (he's about to). With the first two satisfied, the game is over. Now, with BR passing R1 after touching (and achieving) 1B, BR is (or could have been called) Out. As the others have mentioned, this removes the Force Out, and any further tags or appeals would result in a Time Play Out, and R3's run would have still stood.

The bolded is only required with a non batted ball and NCAA just recently changed to the OBR rule in that regard. With a batted ball the game ends when the winning run is scored and the third out is not made by the BR before 1B or other runners before their forced base. Touching 1B by the BR in the OP is not required. MLB umps made a similar statement in error a year or few back and were taken off the hook by a security person.

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7 hours ago, Gil said:

@MadMax, that's the way the rule used to read and how the high school rule still technically reads (though HS requires all runners touch their bases, not just R3/BR).

For instance, here's OBR 5.08(b):

NCAA now uses language like OBR's, "...any other play with the bases full which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without liability of being put out."

The key is without liability of being put out, as in a walk, CI or HBP, etc.

The play @Jimurrayrefers to with the security person was August 9, 2015 Cincinnati vs. Arizona, when the rule at the time said that the game is over when, with the bases loaded, the runner forced to advance from third touches home and BR touches first. It said nothing explicitly about how the runner was forced to advance, though it implied the without liability of being put out (just without stating as much). Rules Committee didn't like how that game ended (single to outfield where ball was picked up by a security person where R2 and/or R1 didn't touch their bases and defense wanted to appeal, but Vanover said game was over because of R3/BR touches), so they added without liability of being put out to make the requirement more narrow: a base hit no longer qualifies for the R3/BR touches = game over rule (or, rather, it is no longer possible to interpret the rule to allow for a single with the bases loaded to be subject to the R3/BR touch = game over rule).

As a result of the 2015 play, MLBUM added the following interp to really drive the point home:

 

While the rule could have been missinterpreted, the 2011 Wendelstedt School Umpire Manual clearly explained that it did not apply to batted balls. 

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10 hours ago, Gil said:

When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without liability of being put out, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base

And at the risk of sounding really obvious - because I'm sure somewhere someone will try to argue this technicality - this really only applies to a two out scenario.

For example, bases loaded, nobody out, batter walks, as long as R3 touches home, you really only need R2 or R1 or B-R to touch their base to end the game.   If R3 and R2 touch their bases and B-R never does...so what.  The game doesn't stay in stasis until he touches first.  Call him out if you want.  Game is still over.


 

10 hours ago, Gil said:

The play @Jimurrayrefers to with the security person was August 9, 2015 Cincinnati vs. Arizona, when the rule at the time said that the game is over when, with the bases loaded, the runner forced to advance from third touches home and BR touches first

On a side note, to the MLB umps missing this call in 2015, MiLB got it right in 2013.

 

In 2013, the Lansing Lugnuts did the Fred Merkle play, defense threw to second for force/appeal, and after much discussion by the umpires they called him out and nullified the run...game went to extra innings and they lost.

At 1:15 in the video.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/03/lansing-lugnuts-walk-off-hit-baserunner-video_n_3541091.html

 

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I'm confused and would appreciate some input.

The consensus is that the force is removed when the BR passes R1. Why?

Let's say R1 is touching the back of the bag, BR steps on the front of the bag and then passes R1. BR is out but BR made it safely to first before passing R1. Why does the force get eliminated?

In comparison: R1, BR hits the pitch into the outfield and goes for two, R1 falls down before tagging second so BR retreats to first. The force would still be on and the defense can get the out at second by touching the bag. What/Where is the difference?

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2 hours ago, Sut'n Blue said:

I'm confused and would appreciate some input.

The consensus is that the force is removed when the BR passes R1. Why?

Let's say R1 is touching the back of the bag, BR steps on the front of the bag and then passes R1. BR is out but BR made it safely to first before passing R1. Why does the force get eliminated?

In comparison: R1, BR hits the pitch into the outfield and goes for two, R1 falls down before tagging second so BR retreats to first. The force would still be on and the defense can get the out at second by touching the bag. What/Where is the difference?

The definition of a force is being required to advance by losing the right to occupy the base you're on...once the B/R is out, then R1 is perfectly fine with occupying 1B again, so there's no force anymore. 

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12 hours ago, Sut'n Blue said:

Let's say R1 is touching the back of the bag, BR steps on the front of the bag and then passes R1. BR is out but BR made it safely to first before passing R1. Why does the force get eliminated?

In comparison: R1, BR hits the pitch into the outfield and goes for two, R1 falls down before tagging second so BR retreats to first. The force would still be on and the defense can get the out at second by touching the bag. What/Where is the difference?

1) If BR is out (for passing), then can R1 stay at first?  Yes -- so R1 is, by definition and English language, not forced from first any more

 

2) At this point, can R1  (legally) retreat to and remain at first?  No -- so, by definition and English language, R1 is forced from first.

 

You've seen, or heard of, I am sure, the play with R1 only, grounder to F3, R1 remains at first.  If F3 tags R1 and then tags the base it's a double play.  If F3 tags the base first and then R1, only the BR is out and R1 can remain at first.  Same concept as in your two plays.

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On 4/14/2018 at 5:37 PM, Sut'n Blue said:

I'm confused and would appreciate some input.

The consensus is that the force is removed when the BR passes R1. Why?

Let's say R1 is touching the back of the bag, BR steps on the front of the bag and then passes R1. BR is out but BR made it safely to first before passing R1. Why does the force get eliminated?

In comparison: R1, BR hits the pitch into the outfield and goes for two, R1 falls down before tagging second so BR retreats to first. The force would still be on and the defense can get the out at second by touching the bag. What/Where is the difference?

Once the BR is out, for any reason, R1 is no longer forced to leave first base.

Let's say in your second scenario R1 advances almost to second, trips, and BR rounds first and is tagged - even though he made it safely to first once he is tagged out, the force for R1 is off - he may get up and try to get to either base.

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