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Guest Mannywood

Timing play or force out

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Guest Mannywood

One out runner on second and third. Fly ball to center field.  Ball is caught, runner on third tags correctly and touches the plate. Runner on second never tags up, she went half way on the fly ball, trips and falls on her way back to second. Runner from third touches plate prior to the runner from second being forced out at second. Does the run stand?

 

thank you

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Not a force out, this is an appeal and a time play. As long as the runner from third scores before the runner from second is put out, the run scores. 

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As always, "tagging the base" and "force out" are not synonyms.

 

A runner can be forced out by tagging the base or by tagging the runner.  A force out can only happen when the runner is advancing (and, more accurately, when he's forced to advance -- hence the name).

 

And, a runner can be out when the base is tagged without it being a force out during an appeal (but I should add that an appeal for a missed base can also be a force out).  That's what you had. SInce it wasn't a force out, it was a time play -- the run scores.

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IT’S A SIMPLE GAME

 

Baseball is a game played by two teams: one is out and the other is in.
 

The one that is in sends its players out one at a time to see if they can get in before they get out. If they get out before they get in then they come in, but it doesn’t count. If they get in before they get out then it does count.
 

When the one team that is out gets three outs from the other one that is in, by getting them out before they are in, then the team that is out goes in and the team that is in goes out to get those in out before they get in without being out.
 

When both teams have been in and out a certain number of times, the game is over. The team with the most in, without being out before they come in, wins, unless the other team has an equal number in. In that case, the last team in goes out to get the other one in out before they get in without being out.  Then the game will end when each team has had the same number in out, but one team having more in without being out before coming in.

 

- By someone other than me; Carlin, maybe.

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A retouch appeal can never, in any possible world, be a force out: if the BR is out on the catch, who's forced to advance?

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1 hour ago, maven said:

A retouch appeal can never, in any possible world, be a force out: if the BR is out on the catch, who's forced to advance?

You assume anyone asking such a question knows that force plays only apply to runners required to advance.

To someone who hasn't specifically read the rule book, and the definitions therein, the word "force" can offer confusion to those who want to use it in everyday terminology, which isn't unreasonable.

Linguistically speaking, a batter who puts the ball is play is "forced" to run to first.  Linguistically speaking, a runner who has left base early on a fly ball, or who has missed a base, is "forced" to return to that base.  They are compelled.  They are required.  They are obliged.  They are forced.   There may be consequences if they do not.   That the requirement is "soft" doesn't matter.  You are required/obliged/forced by law to submit your taxes, or to pay for merchandise before you leave a store.  That it only matters if you get caught doesn't change the obligation.  If you want to get that deep into the semantics between "compelled" and "forced", is anyone, beyond their gravitational attraction to the ground, really forced to do anything?  In everyday language, those runners are forced.

In all scenarios where a runner is forced, linguistically, to advance or return to a base the defense MAY, if they so choose, tag the base instead of the runner to obtain the out.  So they conclude any scenario where you can touch the base to get an out is a force.

Hell, I've seen my share of umpires confuse this one item, and many have told me that an appeal on a runner returning to a base is a "force play".

I can forgive the confusion between English language and baseball language.

 

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58 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

You assume anyone asking such a question knows that force plays only apply to runners required to advance.

No I don't. Hence the second half of the post you quoted: "if the BR is out on the catch, who's forced to advance?"

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19 minutes ago, maven said:

No I don't. Hence the second half of the post you quoted: "if the BR is out on the catch, who's forced to advance?"

And the answer would be "nobody is forced to advance, they're forced to retreat"

To which your response is "by definition in the rules of baseball, a runner can only be forced to advance as a result of a batter becoming a runner...runners are never forced to retreat"

To which their response is "ohhh....I never knew that...I just thought that because they had to go back to the base it was a force play"

To which your response is "it's a common mistake, but now you've been honored with my knowledge - go forth and be fruitful with it"

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Seems like a lot of angst over a follow-up answer to a question that was correctly and succinctly answered 9 hours earlier.  ;)

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9 minutes ago, CJK said:

Seems like a lot of angst over a follow-up answer to a question that was correctly and succinctly answered 9 hours earlier.  ;)

11 hours ;)    I know, 9 hours earlier than Maven.

 

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There's nothing like knowing you really messed up to make you remember what you did wrong. 

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49 minutes ago, Mister B said:

There's nothing like knowing you really messed up to make you remember what you did wrong. 

Child support is a pretty good reminder, too.

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1 hour ago, CJK said:

Seems like a lot of angst over a follow-up answer to a question that was correctly and succinctly answered 9  hours earlier. hundred times on this site.  ;)

FIFY

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