Br retreats, potential obs

[th3]

In the yankee game today there was R1 and the ball was hit on the ground to F3 (actually deflected off F1). F3 fielded the ball well up the line maybe 15 feet in front of the bag. The BR, rather than run into the tag, retreated back towards the plate to give R1 time to get to 2nd.  F3 chased him and ultimately tagged him. My question is how far can he retreat? Would he be out if he retreated back past home plate? And what if ( and this almost happened) F2 “obstructed” him while he was retreating towards the plate?

[th3]

And would FED be different? I know that softball would 

[Senor Azul]

OBR Official Interpretation:  2014 PBUC (p. 84):  In situations where the batter-runner gets into a rundown between first and home, if the batter-runner retreats and reaches home plate, he shall be declared out.

When the batter is retreating toward the plate, the umpire rules obstruction only when he judges it is intentional.

2018 FED Case Book play 8.1.1 Situation A:  With R1, B2 bunts to F3 who fields the ball on the first bounce near the foul line. B2 stops and reverses toward home to avoid being tagged out by F3, who then throws to F6 for a force-out on R1, and the relay throw fails to retire B2 at first base. RULING:  As long as B2 did not touch or run beyond home nor leave the base path to avoid a tag, the action is legal.

Official Interpretation:  Rumble:  When a batter retreats toward the plate, it is always obstruction if BR “collides” with the catcher who neither has the ball nor is making a play.

[maven]

The BR can retreat legally in baseball to HP. Beyond that, the umpire should call him out, and the ball remains live.

Because he can legally retreat, he can possibly be hindered by a fielder. So OBS is a possibility, despite the fact that he cannot legally occupy HP.

[th3]

So fed there can be obs but obr only if intentional?

[ElkOil]

5 hours ago, th3 said:

So fed there can be obs but obr only if intentional?

Yes. Professional players are held to a different standard than high school kids.

[noumpere]

That rumble interp is very old -- maybe even 20 years.  I wonder if FED has a newer interp somewhere.

[johnnyg08]

OBS on a retreating batter/runner between home and first base must be intentional. 

[johnnyg08]

Here's the play:
 

 

[Senor Azul]

Mr. noumpere, the Rumble interpretation is actually more than 20 years old--it was issued in 1994 according to the 2016 BRD.

[beerguy55]

On 4/1/2018 at 8:22 AM, johnnyg08 said:

OBS on a retreating batter/runner between home and first base must be intentional. 

I can't see that.  Is there another interpretation you know that counters the one above?

Imagine in the video, that instead of staying at home plate the catcher had run up the line 20-30 feet, and then, unintentionally, hindered B/R from retreating, allowing F3 to make the tag earlier, and maybe give him a shot at R1.  

Although B/R isn't allowed to return to home plate, he is allowed to try to avoid being tagged for as long as he can, within the rules he must follow.

[johnnyg08]

3 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I can't see that.  Is there another interpretation you know that counters the one above?

Imagine in the video, that instead of staying at home plate the catcher had run up the line 20-30 feet, and then, unintentionally, hindered B/R from retreating, allowing F3 to make the tag earlier, and maybe give him a shot at R1.  

Although B/R isn't allowed to return to home plate, he is allowed to try to avoid being tagged for as long as he can, within the rules he must follow.

Minor League Baseball offers the interpretation below:

 

[Jimurray]

18 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Minor League Baseball offers the interpretation below:

 

MLBUM has same interp.

[johnnyg08]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

MLBUM has same interp.

Yes they do. I only have an ebook for the PBUC manual. 

 

[BT_Blue]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I can't see that.  Is there another interpretation you know that counters the one above?

Imagine in the video, that instead of staying at home plate the catcher had run up the line 20-30 feet, and then, unintentionally, hindered B/R from retreating, allowing F3 to make the tag earlier, and maybe give him a shot at R1.  

Although B/R isn't allowed to return to home plate, he is allowed to try to avoid being tagged for as long as he can, within the rules he must follow.

Watching the video... if Diaz backs all the way into Sanchez who then wraps his arms around him so that they don't both go down into a heep. Could that then be considered OBS? It wasn't "intentional" but it would hinder Diaz from "running the bases?"

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Minor League Baseball offers the interpretation below:

 

Very interesting.  I'd never interpret/rule it that way if I was Head Dude in Charge of Approving Rulings.   I've seen guys in rundowns tuck and roll under the player with the ball, who is between the runner and the bag.  He may be a retreating towards a base he can't occupy, but he has two goals...one to delay a tag and two, to see if something silly happens that would let him get to first - F3 trips, drops ball on tag, misses a tag, etc.  B/R can't do anything if he has fallen over F2, unintentionally, and is lying on the ground.   Retreat can be a strategy to advance, and the batter/runner should have the same protection regardless of direction.  The same protection, I assume, that is afforded a forced runner who is retreating to an occupied base.

 

[Catch18]

Think of this like it’s any other rundown play.


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[maven]

1 hour ago, Catch18 said:

Think of this like it’s any other rundown play.

No, don't.

[Catch18]

No, don't.

Sorry, should have clarified what I meant. Since you can still have obstruction and the runner is permitted to retreat, you would be able to enforce OBS in that sense.


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[maven]

12 hours ago, Catch18 said:

Sorry, should have clarified what I meant. Since you can still have obstruction and the runner is permitted to retreat, you would be able to enforce OBS in that sense.

True: though the criteria for ruling OBS are different for this play (OBS does not generally need to be intentional), if called, the penalty is the same.