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GiantEngineer

Obstruction Question

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R1, less than 2 outs.  FED rules.

1)The hit-and-run is on, so R1 takes off for 2nd on the pitch.  The ball is caught by RF but R1 is obstructed by 2B when a) going towards 2nd and b) when trying to get back to first. 

 

2)Instead, R1 rounds 2nd but missed the base and is obstructed by the SS. The ball is still caught by RF. 

In both cases R1 is thrown out trying to get back to first.

I know that under FED rules the runner is entitled to minimum one base and is protected to wherever the umpire believes they would have reached without the obstruction but can be put out if they choose to advance past the base they are protected to. I know that the runner must go back and touch first but where does the runner end up and how is the missed base handled.

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Award bases as your judgement dictates. The defense can then appeal the missed base and you'd rule accordingly.

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I think that by "last time by" standard (which I believe that Fed adheres to), if the runner retouched 1B and properly touched 2B on obstruction awarded bases, then there is no longer a missed base appeal available. 

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Complex case: OBS, retouch, and missed base rules are all in play.

In general, we will absolve a runner of a missed base only where the OBS caused the missed base.

In both plays, because R1 had to retouch, I won't be awarding anything beyond 2B (the minimum award).

In (2) whether we uphold the appeal will turn on whether the OBS caused the miss. If not, then grant the appeal (the award lapses). If so, then make the award (from the base last touched, not the spot of the foul).

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5 hours ago, maven said:

Complex case: OBS, retouch, and missed base rules are all in play.

In general, we will absolve a runner of a missed base only where the OBS caused the missed base.

In both plays, because R1 had to retouch, I won't be awarding anything beyond 2B (the minimum award).

In (2) whether we uphold the appeal will turn on whether the OBS caused the miss. If not, then grant the appeal (the award lapses). If so, then make the award (from the base last touched, not the spot of the foul).

Since FED has a minimum one base award for obstruction, would you still call the runner out on appeal if he went back and touched first base? Say the initial throw from right field got to first base before the runner did, and even without the OBS he wouldn't have gotten back to first base before the appeal, but he still retouched first base. Would you call him out and not award him second base?

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31 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Since FED has a minimum one base award for obstruction, would you still call the runner out on appeal if he went back and touched first base? Say the initial throw from right field got to first base before the runner did, and even without the OBS he wouldn't have gotten back to first base before the appeal, but he still retouched first base. Would you call him out and not award him second base?

There are 2 possible appeals: the retouch appeal, and the missed base appeal.

The retouch appeal happens during a live ball. We have to rule on whether the runner was hindered in his attempt to return to 1B.

If there was OBS, we keep the ball live till the end of playing action. If action stops when the defense completes the appeal at 1B, then we'll kill it and award 2B.

If the runner wasn't hindered, then there was no OBS. In that case, I'd just rule on the retouch appeal.

If they immediately appeal the missed base (live ball appeal), then we have to determine whether the OBS caused the missed base. If so, then we deny the appeal and make the award; if not, then we rule on the appeal.

As I said, this is a complex play, with lots of rules brought to bear. Need a damn flowchart to follow all the options!

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6 hours ago, maven said:

There are 2 possible appeals: the retouch appeal, and the missed base appeal.

The retouch appeal happens during a live ball. We have to rule on whether the runner was hindered in his attempt to return to 1B.

If there was OBS, we keep the ball live till the end of playing action. If action stops when the defense completes the appeal at 1B, then we'll kill it and award 2B.

If the runner wasn't hindered, then there was no OBS. In that case, I'd just rule on the retouch appeal.

If they immediately appeal the missed base (live ball appeal), then we have to determine whether the OBS caused the missed base. If so, then we deny the appeal and make the award; if not, then we rule on the appeal.

As I said, this is a complex play, with lots of rules brought to bear. Need a damn flowchart to follow all the options!

But you call the obs when it happened. You're stuck with it now.

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This play bothers me. Awarding second base to R1 who was running on the pitch and is obstructed by F4 as R1 is on his way to 2B, while a flyball to F9 is caught,  just seems wrong. This seems akin to a play like this.....None on, Batter pops up to F6. F3 obstructs BR as he rounds 1B. F6 catches the ball. We wouldn't award BR 2B.. would we? Then why would we award R1 2B when he was obstructed on his way to 2B when the catch by F9 dictates he needs to  turn around and get back to 1B? Just seems wrong...

Same play, OBR R1 running on the pitch,obstructed going into 2B by F4, F9 catches the flyball. Ruling?

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30 minutes ago, Richvee said:

This play bothers me. Awarding second base to R1 who was running on the pitch and is obstructed by F4 as R1 is on his way to 2B, while a flyball to F9 is caught,  just seems wrong. This seems akin to a play like this.....None on, Batter pops up to F6. F3 obstructs BR as he rounds 1B. F6 catches the ball. We wouldn't award BR 2B.. would we? Then why would we award R1 2B when he was obstructed on his way to 2B when the catch by F9 dictates he needs to  turn around and get back to 1B? Just seems wrong...

Same play, OBR R1 running on the pitch,obstructed going into 2B by F4, F9 catches the flyball. Ruling?

In OBR we follow Maven's guidelines and determine whether or not the OBS caused R1 to miss second base/fail to retouch first base in time. 

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I invite our comments on this 6am thought:

It would be reasonable to protect R1 from obstruction while attempting to advance before but not after the ball is caught by F9 in the OP.  

It would be reasonable to protect R1 from obstruction while attempting to return to retouch 1B but not advance after the ball is caught by F9 in the OP.   

 

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9 hours ago, Richvee said:

This play bothers me. Awarding second base to R1 who was running on the pitch and is obstructed by F4 as R1 is on his way to 2B, while a flyball to F9 is caught,  just seems wrong.

Don't let it bother you. When the OBS occurred, no one knew (a) that the batter would hit the ball, or (b) that he would hit a fly ball, or (c) that the fly ball would be caught for an out.

Although the penalty for OBS takes into account the subsequent action—nullifying the impact of the OBS has to make the retouch relevant—the violation itself does not.

9 hours ago, Richvee said:

None on, Batter pops up to F6. F3 obstructs BR as he rounds 1B. F6 catches the ball. We wouldn't award BR 2B.. would we? Then why would we award R1 2B when he was obstructed on his way to 2B when the catch by F9 dictates he needs to  turn around and get back to 1B?

The two plays are not apposite, because R1 cannot be retired by anyone catching a fly ball. The BR can be retired that way, wherever he is on the base paths.

That said, you should still call OBS on the fielder hindering the BR (approximately) when it happens. If he's retired, then the award lapses (because retired runners cannot legally advance, no award is required to nullify the OBS). And you've let everyone know that you saw it, and let F3 know he probably shouldn't be there. (And, BTW, I'm envisioning something BIG here that cannot be ignored: the casual bump into F3 right before the ball is caught is NOT OBS and can be addressed with a word to F3 after play.)

Indeed, if it happened that the BR would otherwise have had a chance to advance on a misplayed popup (popup hits fielder's glove and rolls into LF), we definitely would advance the BR on the OBS. And in that play, had we not called the OBS when it happened, it could look bad to call it so late.

10 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

But you call the obs when it happened. You're stuck with it now.

I'm not sure what you're worried about. If I judged hindrance, then I'm happy being "stuck" with the OBS call. I still have to determine the award, which is likely to be different in the 2 codes.

If I screwed up and judged OBS when on reflection there was no hindrance, I'll change the call. The worst case scenario is a FED game where R1 won't be advanced to 2B. I can live with that.

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9 hours ago, maven said:

The two plays are not apposite...

Here I go ramping up the Googler again.

I swear... you and your vocabulary.

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1 hour ago, ElkOil said:

Here I go ramping up the Googler again.

I swear... you and your vocabulary.

Who's the professional writer, LC? ;) I'm just an amateur....

Most who noticed that word likely thought it a typo. At least you could have provided a link....

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1 hour ago, maven said:

Who's the professional writer, LC? ;) I'm just an amateur....

Most who noticed that word likely thought it a typo. At least you could have provided a link....

Fair enough!

ap·po·site
ˈapəzət/
adjective
 
  1. apt in the circumstances or in relation to something.
    "an apposite quotation"
    synonyms: appropriate, suitable, fitting, apt, befitting; More

 

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On 3/9/2018 at 3:55 PM, ElkOil said:

Here I go ramping up the Googler again.

I swear... you and your vocabulary.

I know, right?

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From the 2016 BRD under the header Obstruction: Runner Played on After Caught Fly Ball (section 374, p. 250):

NCAA Official Interpretation:  Paronto:  After a caught fly ball, “making a play on a runner” means throwing the ball in the direction of the base they would be appealing. It is an immediate dead ball. (Type 1) Award:  one base in advance of the TOP base. (Arbiter Hub 2014 Interp #3 paragraph 2)

FED and OBR:  No provision. Treat as in NCAA.

NCAA only:  R1, R2. B1 smashes one deep to right center. Both runners, believing the ball will not be caught, are running on the batted ball. R2 is around third and R1 is near the shortstop position when they realize F9 caught the ball. Strangely, F6 runs into short right field to serve as the cut-off man while F4 wanders around in R1’s obvious return base path. As R1 must change his course to avoid the second baseman, the field umpire yells: “Time! That’s obstruction.” The throw from right field beats R1 to first. Ruling:  R1 goes to second, which forces R2 to third.

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