NFHS Rules: Catcher's Helmet

[Minnz]

On 3/31/2018 at 11:23 PM, ElkOil said:

-1.

There is no definitive science to back up your mouth guard comment, and there is actual science to refute your mask comment. Your preference for protective equipment is not rooted in the safety of high school children. It's one thing to want something for yourself, but it's quite another to want it for "future generations." Why would you possibly want kids more exposed and less protected?

Oh cmon.  There is a ton of studies out there, use google, to show mouth-guard use and decline of concussion severity in many sports. Many people are begging this to be mandatory in soccer which often has the highest undetected concussion rate of all sports.  Numerous minor league hockey teams have now mandated their use and has been pushed but the team's Athletic Trainers on staff.  Great stuff.

[KenBAZ]

If a kid can wear his HSM to catch pitches why can't he take a throw for a play at the plate with his helmet on? The danger seems to be from a ball or a runner's helmet to the face. Leaving his HSM on offers the best protection.

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[ElkOil]

3 hours ago, Minnz said:

Oh cmon.  There is a ton of studies out there, use google, to show mouth-guard use and decline of concussion severity in many sports. Many people are begging this to be mandatory in soccer which often has the highest undetected concussion rate of all sports.  Numerous minor league hockey teams have now mandated their use and has been pushed but the team's Athletic Trainers on staff.  Great stuff.

If you mean a Google search like this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=do+mouthguards+prevent+concussions&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS761US761&oq=do+mouthguards+prevent+&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.13006j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I'll go ahead and disagree with you. More studies than not either state they won't help, or the jury is still out. The vast minority of studies that I've found state mouthguards prevent concussions.

Many, many people can beg and plead all they like, but public opinion is not a substitute for scientific finding. Neither is minor league hockey teams mandating their use. Many times, those steps are taken as feel-good measures to show that a league "cares" about their players (or wants to avoid liability and lawsuits, more accurately), but the actual benefit may be little or none. I'll take the science every time.

[Minnz]

12 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

If you mean a Google search like this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=do+mouthguards+prevent+concussions&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS761US761&oq=do+mouthguards+prevent+&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.13006j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I'll go ahead and disagree with you. More studies than not either state they won't help, or the jury is still out. The vast minority of studies that I've found state mouthguards prevent concussions.

Many, many people can beg and plead all they like, but public opinion is not a substitute for scientific finding. Neither is minor league hockey teams mandating their use. Many times, those steps are taken as feel-good measures to show that a league "cares" about their players (or wants to avoid liability and lawsuits, more accurately), but the actual benefit may be little or none. I'll take the science every time.

Once again I never said prevent. Reduce severity has been shown.

Also, NOCSAE is not the end all be all in their opinions. Many people have written opposite of their idea behind the hockey mask vs traditional.

[ElkOil]

2 hours ago, Minnz said:

Once again I never said prevent. Reduce severity has been shown.

Also, NOCSAE is not the end all be all in their opinions. Many people have written opposite of their idea behind the hockey mask vs traditional.

Ok.

[BT_Blue]

14 hours ago, KenBAZ said:

If a kid can wear his HSM to catch pitches why can't he take a throw for a play at the plate with his helmet on? The danger seems to be from a ball or a runner's helmet to the face. Leaving his HSM on offers the best protection.

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Aren't they being taught this anyway? The days of chucking the helmet or mask to the side for a play at the plate are long gone. Most catchers keep their masks on to protect them from getting a ball to the face, as much as it is to not take a runner's body part to the same area.

[Minnz]

On 4/16/2018 at 11:47 AM, KenBAZ said:

If a kid can wear his HSM to catch pitches why can't he take a throw for a play at the plate with his helmet on? The danger seems to be from a ball or a runner's helmet to the face. Leaving his HSM on offers the best protection.

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That was the whole idea about these masks. You shouldn't have to take them off.  They are meant to be worn all the time even when making plays. Umpires shouldn't "have" to remove either to make a call but we all know leaving the mask on to make a call wouldn't ever fly.

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, Minnz said:

That was the whole idea about these masks. You shouldn't have to take them off.  They are meant to be worn all the time even when making plays. Umpires shouldn't "have" to remove either to make a call but we all know leaving the mask on to make a call wouldn't ever fly.

Most "grown up" catchers these days leave their mask on no matter the type.  Youth coaches need to catch up.

[CMM]

I realize I am coming in years late on this conversation, but I am just curious if with all the increased concussion studies surrounding the use of the hockey style masks, anyone has heard any talks of maybe moving back to the skull cap?

[Aging_Arbiter]

no

[scrounge]

1 hour ago, CMM said:

I realize I am coming in years late on this conversation, but I am just curious if with all the increased concussion studies surrounding the use of the hockey style masks, anyone has heard any talks of maybe moving back to the skull cap?

I've often heard of these studies....I've never once actually seen one referenced. I have serious doubts that they exist.

[MadMax]

Actually, @CMM, the State of Colorado allows the use of a TM and earflap-less, brimmed batting helmet (what is referred to as a skullcap).

The concern isn't concussions. The concern is "head injuries". Is the neck considered part of the head? Yes. Are the ears considered part of the head? Yes. Both of them are vulnerable if/when a batter loses his grip on his bat during a swing, or has a long, sweeping follow through, or if an inexperienced catcher turns his head (which I witnessed a 14 year old F2 do... took the bounced pitch off the side of the HSM).

I'm certainly not the HSM's champion, nor am I even a friend... I barely tolerate them. But, I understand their purpose. What I don't get is why amateur coaches keep teaching these youth F2's to shed the HSM immediately, on any and every time a pitched ball gets away or a batted ball is put into play! Kids! Leave that thing on! In most cases, taking it off and flinging it on the ground is unnecessary and damaging to the mask, but also it keeps the head protected on plays at the plate (whether from colliding runner or from a thrown ball skipping across the ground). 

[ilyazhito]

MadMax, that is very interesting. Is there a document on the CHSAA website, or on the Colorado High School Baseball Umpires Association website that says this, or is it just an informal understanding between umpires and catchers that allows this to happen? I would be interested to see this actually play out.

I have had catchers occasionally wearing a traditional-style mask and helmet combination in games under NFHS rules, and I did not say anything to anyone about seeing them wear such equipment. 

[Mudisfun]

53 minutes ago, ilyazhito said:

MadMax, that is very interesting. Is there a document on the CHSAA website, or on the Colorado High School Baseball Umpires Association website that says this, or is it just an informal understanding between umpires and catchers that allows this to happen? I would be interested to see this actually play out.

I have had catchers occasionally wearing a traditional-style mask and helmet combination in games under NFHS rules, and I did not say anything to anyone about seeing them wear such equipment. 

Game 2 weeks back... I am BU and noticed F2 when backing up a play at 1st that he was using a mask/skullcap. Called my PU over, mentioned it to him, and he took care of it. First time in a HS game in a long time, especially towards the latter part of the season that I had F2 use an unapproved mask. 

Now why did I mention it? Because, A) it is in the rules, and B) if this F2 got hurt, I don't want to be answering a ton of questions as to why we allowed (because it would be our fault, of course) F2 to use illegal equipment... If I notice it, I am going to fix it.

[ousafe]

Did you restrict the HC?

[MadMax]

On 4/18/2019 at 9:31 AM, ilyazhito said:

I have had catchers occasionally wearing a traditional-style mask and helmet combination in games under NFHS rules

Are these actual sanctioned HS games? Or are these Travel Ball / Tournament / Club / Academy / League (NOT Little League, NOT American Legion) using NFHS out of familiarity and convenience? If the first, then unless the (individual) state decrees (such as Colorado, allegedly), then the catcher must wear a NOCSAE-approved one-piece mask. As @Mudisfun mentions, we (umpires) are liable if we allow it. If the second, then those Tournament and League entities are assuming the risk and liability. An example is Perfect Game (at least around here) – they use a mash-up of OBR and Fed, often in odd intersections. Most catchers in this series favor the 2-piece because its cooler, less restrictive, and it allows them to "look and throw like a pro" in front of the scouts.

Edited April 20, 2019 by MadMax
Fixed spelling on “liable”

[Mudisfun]

21 hours ago, ousafe said:

Did you restrict the HC?

I did not. We gave him a warning... he said, and I actually believe him, that he did not notice that his player used the illegal items. My PU did not notice it and he was standing behind F2. And before you ask, no, I have no idea how long F2 used this... one pitch, the whole game... no idea. 

[grayhawk]

21 hours ago, ousafe said:

Did you restrict the HC?

Why would he?  There is no provision in the rules for restricting the coach for his catcher's failure to wear the proper equipment.  The only penalty is to eject the player if he refuses to wear proper equipment after being ordered to do so by the umpire.

[grayhawk]

6 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

I did not. We gave him a warning... he said, and I actually believe him, that he did not notice that his player used the illegal items. My PU did not notice it and he was standing behind F2. And before you ask, no, I have no idea how long F2 used this... one pitch, the whole game... no idea. 

No warning to the coach should be given.  Fix it and if the catcher won't comply, then eject the catcher.

[Mudisfun]

PU, once made aware of the issue handled it. Since F2 was by 1st base backing up, and PU had come down the line, I let him deal with it. 

He made F2 switch it. He made sure the coach was aware of the issue, since he needs to be. He warned him to make sure it was not repeated. 

F2 immediately complied, so not real issues there. 

[ilyazhito]

Only once did this happen in an actual high school game (a scrimmage). The other times were in travel or tournament games. 

For the record, I personally disagree with this rule, because there is limited, if any reason to suppose that a high school catcher cannot be well-protected in a traditional-style mask and helmet combination, if their collegiate and professional counterparts are well-protected wearing them, and if these same catchers use them in the off-season to no apparent ill effects. If umpires use traditional-style masks, I believe that they should be allowed for catchers as well. There is no distinction between a teenage umpire wearing a traditional-style mask working middle school games (in states where juniors and seniors are allowed to be registered as officials) and an adult umpire doing the same for high school, so there is no reason why a teenage catcher for a JV or varsity team should not be allowed to wear the 2-piece mask and helmet combination when his older brother, who is a college catcher, can do so. 

[yawetag]

13 hours ago, MadMax said:

As @Mudisfun mentions, we (umpires) are libel if we allow it.

I think the word is "liable".

But I'll leave the legal ramifications to those who have gone down that road or are lawyers.

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

For the record, I persorally disagree with this rule... [bunch of valid opinion] ... JV or varsity team should not be allowed to wear the 2-piece mask and helmet combination when his older brother, who is a college catcher, can do so. 

@ilyazhito, I’m not trying to argue with you nor do I disagree with your sentiment.

It’s not a technical issue. There is no distinction that can made through scientific study of any kind to conclude that an 18-year old catcher for HS is any more, or any less prone to injuries than an 18-year old catcher playing for a college. None. It will never be found, no matter how many times they (or we) run the tests and run the numbers.

It’s a liability issue. Simply said, because NFHS covers HS sports, which, aside from 18-year olds, are almost wholly minors, they do not want to run the risk of a lawsuit.

[grayhawk]

21 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

PU, once made aware of the issue handled it. Since F2 was by 1st base backing up, and PU had come down the line, I let him deal with it. 

He made F2 switch it. He made sure the coach was aware of the issue, since he needs to be. He warned him to make sure it was not repeated. 

F2 immediately complied, so not real issues there. 

I'm fine with everything except this.  Warn him to what end?  It's simply not in the rules to warn or eject a coach for the catcher's failure to wear proper equipment.

[catsbackr]

As long as HS kids and below turn their head rather than keeping their head forward, the HSM is needed.  I see it all of the time.