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eagle_12

3-man, R3 , less than 2 outs

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3-man, R3 , less than 2 outs, fly ball to LF and U3 goes out. 

Pu has tag of R3, U1 has to haul a** across for playback at 3rd  

F7 makes the playback into 3rd on a retreating R3, plays out like a “ normal” leaving early appeal (no tag on runner, fielder holding the bag)

Now the situation, and it doesn’t matter which one, PU has info from one part of the play that affects U1’s end ruling:

Say ball beats runner to the base, but U1 ruling on the play is “Safe” because there is no tag, not seeing it as a left early/no retouching appeal, but PU does have him leaving early.

 —or—

U1rules him out on left early/no retouch appeal, but PU has him leaving/retouching legally so it becomes a tag play. 

Thoughts? PU need to step in with crew and clarify all the parts of the play with everyone?

 

Hopefully all this makes this makes sense.  

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, eagle_12 said:

Say ball beats runner to the base, but U1 ruling on the play is “Safe” because there is no tag, not seeing it as a left early/no retouching appeal, but PU does have him leaving early.

PU has to determine if this was a retouch appeal. This usually isn't instantaneous and U1's safe call will probably occur first. U1 with a "SAFE, NO TAG" would make it clear to all participants what he was ruling on tag/no tag ONLY (not the appeal). If then the defense states that they were appealing the re-touch, then PU rules on that (who might/might not get additional info from U1 about the timeliness of the throw to F5).  

10 hours ago, eagle_12 said:

U1 rules him out on left early/no retouch appeal, but PU has him leaving/retouching legally so it becomes a tag play. 

That's a sticky one. U1 screwed the pooch. I think that this is a HTBT sitch.
1. Does U1 verbally specify that the out was for the retouch appeal ? That would be strange.
2. How did OHC respond ? Does he come talk to PU or BU ? 

Fortunately, the "get-the-call-right" edict is in agreement with the proper umpire responsibilities. I think that BU/PU have to talk, determine the result of the tag/no-tag and the result of the retouch appeal (and who is responsible for each). If PU is adamant that the retouch appeal did not occur in time, he will have to make the SAFE call and deal with DHC who will be livid. 

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10 hours ago, eagle_12 said:

Say ball beats runner to the base, but U1 ruling on the play is “Safe” because there is no tag, not seeing it as a left early/no retouching appeal, but PU does have him leaving early.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

An appeal needs to be obvious.  So, either it is and BU won't be making the call above (unless U1 is oblivious to the obviousness), or it wasn't and your presumption is unfounded.

 

In play 2 -- U1 can just look at or ask PU if the runner left early and then make the call.  It's not like s/he has to decide in a vacuum.

 

And, the same play happens in two-man, so you play was unnecessarily complicated.

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One difference is, in 2-man, FU is in C, so is in a better spot to pick up on the play easier.

I had a similar play last year, where I was 95% sure R3 was coming back and hadn't tagged (had to watch for touch by BR at 1B oviis), and made the call of out on the appeal back. If anyone had questioned, I would have gone to PU to see if it was an appeal, but went with what it looked like to fill in the % I wasn't sure about.

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2 hours ago, udbrky said:

One difference is, in 2-man, FU is in C, so is in a better spot to pick up on the play easier.

I had a similar play last year, where I was 95% sure R3 was coming back and hadn't tagged (had to watch for touch by BR at 1B oviis), and made the call of out on the appeal back. If anyone had questioned, I would have gone to PU to see if it was an appeal, but went with what it looked like to fill in the % I wasn't sure about.

FU???    OHHHHHHHH, you meant BU.  My bad!

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5 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

FU???    OHHHHHHHH, you meant BU.  My bad!

Haha, yeah, I stumbled on that one in my mind. Need to switch back to baseball mode. I blame the lack of free agent movement in MLB!

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On 1/10/2018 at 8:22 AM, ricka56 said:

PU has to determine if this was a retouch appeal. This usually isn't instantaneous and U1's safe call will probably occur first. U1 with a "SAFE, NO TAG" would make it clear to all participants what he was ruling on tag/no tag ONLY (not the appeal). If then the defense states that they were appealing the re-touch, then PU rules on that (who might/might not get additional info from U1 about the timeliness of the throw to F5).  

That's a sticky one. U1 screwed the pooch. I think that this is a HTBT sitch.
1. Does U1 verbally specify that the out was for the retouch appeal ? That would be strange.
2. How did OHC respond ? Does he come talk to PU or BU ? 

Fortunately, the "get-the-call-right" edict is in agreement with the proper umpire responsibilities. I think that BU/PU have to talk, determine the result of the tag/no-tag and the result of the retouch appeal (and who is responsible for each). If PU is adamant that the retouch appeal did not occur in time, he will have to make the SAFE call and deal with DHC who will be livid. 

Should should not happen in this play either. The coach would tell U1 what they were appealing, and maybe U1 had a brain fart. he (U1) would then go talk to PU. together ( all 3 umpires or 4) always wait for all the umpires to get together before we talk in any sit.

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1 hour ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

No the PU should do nothing it's not hsi call. His (PU) call is only if the runner left early. Everything else is U1. U1 would need to go for help If he decided too.

Who's call is it if R3 left early, decides to return to 3B, but the throw beats him back to 3B ?

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In 3-man, wouldn't this be U3's call? (U3 would be in short D, unless he went out). U3 would be better positioned to see any play/appeal at 3rd base than U1 would be.

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43 minutes ago, ilyazhito said:

In 3-man, wouldn't this be U3's call? (U3 would be in short D, unless he went out). U3 would be better positioned to see any play/appeal at 3rd base than U1 would be.

The OP specifically said, " 3-man, R3 , less than 2 outs, fly ball to LF and U3 goes out.  "

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On January 9, 2018 at 10:02 PM, eagle_12 said:

3-man, R3 , less than 2 outs, fly ball to LF and U3 goes out. 

Pu has tag of R3, U1 has to haul a** across for playback at 3rd  

F7 makes the playback into 3rd on a retreating R3, plays out like a “ normal” leaving early appeal (no tag on runner, fielder holding the bag)

Now the situation, and it doesn’t matter which one, PU has info from one part of the play that affects U1’s end ruling:

Say ball beats runner to the base, but U1 ruling on the play is “Safe” because there is no tag, not seeing it as a left early/no retouching appeal, but PU does have him leaving early. 

 —or—

U1rules him out on left early/no retouch appeal, but PU has him leaving/retouching legally so it becomes a tag play. 

Thoughts? PU need to step in with crew and clarify all the parts of the play with everyone?

 

Hopefully all this makes this makes sense.  

 

 

 

 

 

IMO, if it all plays out according to the rules, there is nothing to talk about. If there is a doubt, discuss it.  Two minds are better than one and it looks like you are working to get it right!  

It's also better to question each other than a coaches questioning both of you!

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