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Moderator, please detach the video from the Facebook link so we are not subjected to the Facebook comment stream associated with the video. 

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@maven  Am I misunderstanding something here that if "in the umpires judgment" the runner makes a move toward 2B, then he is liable to be tagged out?  Now, I realize there is nothing in any rule set that says you have to turn to the right when running out a base hit, but this kid made a move to 2B. To me, the runner made a turn with the intent on continuing to 2B, thereby removing the "first time by" protection.......until he realized the play had been "backed up" by another player.

or am I completely off base (see what I did there?) in my understanding here?

 

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16 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

@maven  Am I misunderstanding something here that if "in the umpires judgment" the runner makes a move toward 2B, then he is liable to be tagged out?  Now, I realize there is nothing in any rule set that says you have to turn to the right when running out a base hit, but this kid made a move to 2B. To me, the runner made a turn with the intent on continuing to 2B, thereby removing the "first time by" protection.......until he realized the play had been "backed up" by another player.

or am I completely off base (see what I did there?) in my understanding here?

No, you're exactly right. I thought that F3 had caught the ball, that the BU had ruled "no touch, no tag," and that the play was being treated as such.

My new comment is simply: feet ≠ roots. Move!

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It seems U1's call here is "safe, runner made a move towards 2nd but got back safely". If he was tagged or not is irrelevant for our discussion. To Maven's point, the takeaway from this should be  U1 should have moved to get a better angle on the tag. 

So my question for discussion is, which way would have been best for U1 to move? Should he have moved to his right and towards the infield grass between 1B and 2B to get an angle on the tag, or would a few steps in and to his left, towards the coach's box in foul territory be a better spot? Would it matter if we were in a 2 or 3 man crew?  (Move to the right and towards the infield grass line and not towards foul ground in a 2 man system even if the foul side provides a better view at the wedge, in case F3 doesn't make the catch and BR starts to 2B) 

For what it's worth, in the OP, U1 seems to be moving to "A" after his call so I'm thinking he's in a 3 or 4 man crew and I would suggest a few steps foul towards the coach's box would provide the best view of the tag on the returning BR. 

In a 2 man, I think the safer move would be to his right and towards the infield. Still providing a better angle on the tag than not moving at all. In the OP, U1 is straight lined because he didn't move either way.  

 

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1 hour ago, Richvee said:

For what it's worth, in the OP, U1 seems to be moving to "A" after his call so I'm thinking he's in a 3 or 4 man crew and I would suggest a few steps foul towards the coach's box would provide the best view of the tag on the returning BR. 

In a 2 man, I think the safer move would be to his right and towards the infield. Still providing a better angle on the tag than not moving at all. In the OP, U1 is straight lined because he didn't move either way.  

 

First, I would really like to know where this ball was hit (where the throw was coming from).  I don't think (but I'm not positive) that he got in to a proper 90-degree angle.  I believe (without seeing the video) that if it was hit to F4 he went too far into fair territory, and if it was hit to F5 or F6, he didn't go far enough.  But, again, I'm speculating.  With that said...

...I agree 100% with your post.  In a two-man, you have to come in toward the infield grass when the overthrow occurs because you may have to take the B/R into second base.  The only time the BU (in a 2-man) doesn't have the B/R into second on an overthrow (with no runners on base) is when he has "pressure" and has to take the play at first in foul territory.  There was no "pressure" on this play, so the plate umpire takes the overthrow and the base umpire has the B/R into second base.  Hence, my first paragraph in this post...I don't think he did himself any favors with where he came set to see the play at first base.  MiLB is teaching (1) get the proper 90-degree angle OR go a step BEYOND the 90-degree angle to come set for the play at first and then (2) when you read a bad throw with a possible swipe tag/pulled foot, to adjust your position (to see the swipe tag/pull foot) by moving toward the home plate side of first base.  All of this puts the base umpire in better position to get on the track and take the B/R to second base.  Obviously, this base umpire pitched a tent and did not adjust to the play as the play was developing.

In a 3 or 4 man crew...if he had just take about six steps into foul territory (so that he was about 3-4 feet beyond the foul line into foul territory) he would have been set up perfectly in the wedge.  With no responsibilities at second base, this is the way to go, IMHO.  I mean, I'm getting goose bumps watching this video because I know how awesome he would have looked had he just moved to this spot...It would have been a beautiful wedge call on the bases.

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43 minutes ago, lawump said:

I mean, I'm getting goose bumps watching this video

If you had posted this anywhere else, people would think you're a weirdo.  But here, we're all nodding in agreement.

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7 minutes ago, CJK said:

If you had posted this anywhere else, people would think you're a weirdo. 

That's what my entire family thinks.

But, for some reason, they all call me the moment any crazy play happens in a Red Sox game.  LOL

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15 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Moderator, please detach the video from the Facebook link so we are not subjected to the Facebook comment stream associated with the video. 

here you go:

play.mp4

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1 hour ago, lawump said:

First, I would really like to know where this ball was hit (where the throw was coming from).  I don't think (but I'm not positive) that he got in to a proper 90-degree angle.  I believe (without seeing the video) that if it was hit to F4 he went too far into fair territory, and if it was hit to F5 or F6, he didn't go far enough.  But, again, I'm speculating.  With that said...

...I agree 100% with your post.  In a two-man, you have to come in toward the infield grass when the overthrow occurs because you may have to take the B/R into second base.  The only time the BU (in a 2-man) doesn't have the B/R into second on an overthrow (with no runners on base) is when he has "pressure" and has to take the play at first in foul territory.  There was no "pressure" on this play, so the plate umpire takes the overthrow and the base umpire has the B/R into second base.  Hence, my first paragraph in this post...I don't think he did himself any favors with where he came set to see the play at first base.  MiLB is teaching (1) get the proper 90-degree angle OR go a step BEYOND the 90-degree angle to come set for the play at first and then (2) when you read a bad throw with a possible swipe tag/pulled foot, to adjust your position (to see the swipe tag/pull foot) by moving toward the home plate side of first base.  All of this puts the base umpire in better position to get on the track and take the B/R to second base.  Obviously, this base umpire pitched a tent and did not adjust to the play as the play was developing.

In a 3 or 4 man crew...if he had just take about six steps into foul territory (so that he was about 3-4 feet beyond the foul line into foul territory) he would have been set up perfectly in the wedge.  With no responsibilities at second base, this is the way to go, IMHO.  I mean, I'm getting goose bumps watching this video because I know how awesome he would have looked had he just moved to this spot...It would have been a beautiful wedge call on the bases.

All of the above...

The first thing I noticed was that the umpire went to a spot "X" when the ball was put into play. I don't believe he ever saw the ball coming and read it was off line to anticipate the play and make any adjustment.  

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Why, oh why, did I let myself get drawn into the Facebook discussion?  

Why do I consistently make such bad decisions?

I need to reevaluate my life.

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He was safe, because that was the call and I have no power to overturn it. But what I did learn: Pay attention to the ball. It looks like the throw is coming from short center. If that throw was off the same amount in a different direction, U1 would be seeing stars. I think I would have stayed in foul territory on that hit, probably better angle and the ability to move to see the tag. Moving in screws up the angle and potentially puts you into the path of the ball or the B/R. 

I do agree that he did make a move to 2B, and that he was called safe by a missed tag. 

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6 hours ago, Umpire in Chief said:

All of the above...

The first thing I noticed was that the umpire went to a spot "X" when the ball was put into play. I don't believe he ever saw the ball coming and read it was off line to anticipate the play and make any adjustment.  

As for reading the bad throw vs. a true throw. I learned a new technique this year, and I love it. I no longer watch the throw top determine a true throw or off line throw. All I'm watching for is the release. That's all I need to see. As soon as you know the ball is released, turn, and focus on the bag and R3. If the throw is on line, you're all ready. Eyes on the bag, listen for the pop. If the throw is off line, F3 will let you know by his movement. Key off him. By watching F3, you will be able to tell what direction the throw is off line and you can adjust accordingly.

Two advantages to this mechanic.

1. It gives your head and body more time to get set for the banger. You're not snapping your head into position as the ball is entering F3's glove. You've been set and waiting for the action from the time of the infielder's release.

2. I'm adjusting to a bad throw as F3 is. he's telling me where I have to be. I don't have to guess as to what F3 may do while I'm trying to read the throw in flight. There's so much more time to make adjustments when watching F3 as opposed to watching the flight of the throw.  

5 hours ago, lawump said:

Why, oh why, did I let myself get drawn into the Facebook discussion?  

Why do I consistently make such bad decisions?

I need to reevaluate my life.

LOL. I opened up a comment box and started typing, and the voice of reason in my head got loud.."Don't do it! Don't get sucked in. You're just gonna aggravate yourself " 

I was proud of myself. I exited and didn't post a comment. :cool2:

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14 hours ago, Mister B said:

 I think I would have stayed in foul territory on that hit,

U1 should almost never stay in foul territory when the ball is hit in the infield.  Stay there if F4 is coming hard toward the line and fields the ball -- but that happens only a couple of times a season.  We would likely see F4 in the video if that were the case here.

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If you're PU, would you under typical situations be in a position to see the tag made?

and

If you are/were - would you indicate to your partner that you had info to help?  Obviously if DHC asks BU to ask for help and he came to you, then you'd give him what you had.

 

TIA

Edited by stkjock
fixed umpires designation - thx Maven

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The only way I'm giving U1 any info as the PU here is if he calls the runner out and I see the ball laying on the ground that U1 obviously didn't see. I'm not getting involved in his judgement call of tag/no tag, nor his judgement of if BR made a move towards 2B. If I'm PU and DC comes to me, I'm pointing at my partner saying "That's his call". If DC comes to ME as U1, I'm telling him that's my call unless I see PU giving me the "I've got info you need sign"  (pregamed every time with me). And if he has something, it better be something like 'You called him out on the tag and the ball was on the ground". It better not be "You called him safe and I think F3 tagged him" That's not PU's business here. 

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1 hour ago, stkjock said:

If you are/were - would you indicate to your partner that you had info to help?  Obviously if DHC asks PU BU to ask for help and he came to you, then you'd give him what you had.

FIFY.

PU should have the overthrow here. If in position, he won't have a good look at the tag on the opposite side of the base, 80+ feet away. BU will have to live/die with this one.

You asked about "typical" situations, but this isn't one: the BR is rarely involved in a tag play at 1B. Sometimes it's a swipe tag, and yes, PU has responsibility to help with that (with no other runners), and can even have the only good look if the swipe occurs on HP side and on the BR's back.

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36 minutes ago, maven said:

FIFY.

PU should have the overthrow here. If in position, he won't have a good look at the tag on the opposite side of the base, 80+ feet away. BU will have to live/die with this one.

You asked about "typical" situations, but this isn't one: the BR is rarely involved in a tag play at 1B. Sometimes it's a swipe tag, and yes, PU has responsibility to help with that (with no other runners), and can even have the only good look if the swipe occurs on HP side and on the BR's back.

thanks for the correction and explanation.

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

The only way I'm giving U1 any info as the PU here is if he calls the runner out and I see the ball laying on the ground that U1 obviously didn't see. I'm not getting involved in his judgement call of tag/no tag, nor his judgement of if BR made a move towards 2B. If I'm PU and DC comes to me, I'm pointing at my partner saying "That's his call". If DC comes to ME as U1, I'm telling him that's my call unless I see PU giving me the "I've got info you need sign"  (pregamed every time with me). And if he has something, it better be something like 'You called him out on the tag and the ball was on the ground". It better not be "You called him safe and I think F3 tagged him" That's not PU's business here. 

/\ that's the root of what my question really was, I guess not phrased very well.  as PU do you give some indication, I guess you do IF the call is in question by DHC

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1 hour ago, stkjock said:

thanks for the correction and explanation.

/\ that's the root of what my question really was, I guess not phrased very well.  as PU do you give some indication, I guess you do IF the call is in question by DHC

Like I said, as PU I'm only offering up info on a blatant miss like an out call on a tag with a clearly dropped ball. The timing of the  tag, or the start to 2B by BR is judgement for U1 and I have nothing to add. If U1 wants info from me on stuff like that, I have nothing. 

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22 minutes ago, Richvee said:

If U1 wants info from me on stuff like that, I have nothing. 

I would generally agree with you if everybody had done things right, but I think you have to be open to something like, "Look, Richvee, I kicked the ever-loving vegemite out of this one, because I broke for 2B when I saw the overthrow and didn't see whether BR turned," or "I didn't anticipate the little half-break, got completely screened, and couldn't even see if the tag went down in time."  There's clearly a longer discussion to have during your post-game, but I think you still have to be willing to grab the crappy end of the stick if that's what it takes to avoid an egregious miss as a crew.

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1 hour ago, CJK said:

I would generally agree with you if everybody had done things right, but I think you have to be open to something like, "Look, Richvee, I kicked the ever-loving vegemite out of this one, because I broke for 2B when I saw the overthrow and didn't see whether BR turned," or "I didn't anticipate the little half-break, got completely screened, and couldn't even see if the tag went down in time."  There's clearly a longer discussion to have during your post-game, but I think you still have to be willing to grab the crappy end of the stick if that's what it takes to avoid an egregious miss as a crew.

I think it’s okay in situations like you described, but on the play in the video, BU saw the whole thing (albeit from a terrible angle) and simply judged safe. Without the benefit of video, if PU sees it differently, who’s to say he’s right?

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