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Guest Gary

Senior softball league. Man on first no outs. Ground ball to the first baseman. The runner at first does not run to second, instead steps Imto foul territory. First baseman steps on first, the batter is out. Runner steps back on first. Is the runner out as well?

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3 minutes ago, Guest Gary said:

Senior softball league. Man on first no outs. Ground ball to the first baseman. The runner at first does not run to second, instead steps Imto foul territory. First baseman steps on first, the batter is out. Runner steps back on first. Is the runner out as well?

Nope.. He was never passed by the batter runner nor was he tagged or forced out. 

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Ordinarily on this play (in baseball anyway), R1 is caught between the fielders. When F3 gets the ball, the order in which he tags R1 and 1B determines whether he puts out 1 or 2 runners.

In this case, R1 is on the base when F3 gets the ball, and he steps off the base, retreating behind it, presumably to avoid a tag. If F3 can't reach him (again, in baseball at least), he'd be out for leaving the baseline to avoid a tag.

So yes, I'd probably get 2 outs here (in baseball).

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There might be some HTBT, because softball guys jump into foul territory all the time when their buddies make solid contact down the first base line (in accordance with the "everybody has to go to work tomorrow" overtones of the sport).  If he jumped back before the tag attempt, you might not have two outs.

Of course, if you can sell two, you've absolutely earned them.

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But presuming R1 did not move more than three feet away from a straight line between first base and himself, which line is established at the time of an unmentioned tag attempt by the fielder on R1, R1 is safe.  Runner chooses his own base path prior to a tag attempt on him, and once the batter-runner is out, the force is off and R1 need not attempt to reach second base.

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9 hours ago, maven said:

Ordinarily on this play (in baseball anyway), R1 is caught between the fielders. When F3 gets the ball, the order in which he tags R1 and 1B determines whether he puts out 1 or 2 runners.

In this case, R1 is on the base when F3 gets the ball, and he steps off the base, retreating behind it, presumably to avoid a tag. If F3 can't reach him (again, in baseball at least), he'd be out for leaving the baseline to avoid a tag.

So yes, I'd probably get 2 outs here (in baseball).

Not unless a tag was attempted - and then only if the runner then went more than three feet from his baseline.

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6 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Not unless a tag was attempted - and then only if the runner then went more than three feet from his baseline.

The OP doesn't have a lot of detail, but F3 with the ball moving toward R1 sounds like a tag attempt. Benefit of any doubt to the defense.

When R1 is forced to advance , his baseline is set when the tag attempt starts. It runs from him to 2B. If he retreats, he's out of the baseline.

This situation is unusual because ordinarily we apply this rule during a rundown, when the runner may legally advance or retreat. Every time he changes direction, his baseline "resets." But here, R1 is on 1B, and there's nowhere to retreat: I'm treating foul territory as out of the baseline.

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7 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Not unless a tag was attempted - and then only if the runner then went more than three feet from his baseline.

No "physical" tag attempt is needed if the umpire determines the fielder was moving to play on the runner.

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5 hours ago, maven said:

The OP doesn't have a lot of detail, but F3 with the ball moving toward R1 sounds like a tag attempt. Benefit of any doubt to the defense. Could easily an attempt to tag the base. Need to see what the fielder is doing.

When R1 is forced to advance , his baseline is set when the tag attempt starts. It runs from him to 2B. Only if there is an attempt to tag him AND the B-R is not out yet. The force could be gone if F3 tags 1B first.  If he retreats, he's out of the baseline. BS - runners retreat every day to delay a tag and make time for the B-R to get to 1B.

This situation is unusual because ordinarily we apply this rule during a rundown, when the runner may legally advance or retreat. Every time he changes direction, his baseline "resets." But here, R1 is on 1B, and there's nowhere to retreat: I'm treating foul territory as out of the baseline. It's not a retreat. He can run anywhere he wishes until the tag attempt starts.

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On 12/29/2017 at 2:41 PM, Guest Gary said:

Senior softball league.

R1 and F3 each chug a beer.  If R1 finishes first he is safe; if F3 finishes first R1 is out.

 

Note that some leagues have a designated chugger -- either for all, or for a specified number of other players.

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On 1/2/2018 at 10:22 AM, noumpere said:

R1 and F3 each chug a beer.  If R1 finishes first he is safe; if F3 finishes first R1 is out.

Note that some leagues have a designated chugger -- either for all, or for a specified number of other players.

This is very much like Keg League Softball, of which I observed when I attended the Wettest Campus in the Midwest – the University of Wisconsin - Madison.

2 kegs, one near home plate, the other just behind 2B. A whole mess of plastic cups, most "collected" from the Badger home football games they gave out generously prior to 1993 (when Wisconsin (finally) beat Michigan, and the entire student section rushed the field, landing some 50-80 people in the hospital, 9 of them critical; hard plastic cups were identified as objects that could be thrown (they were, like a blizzard) and incite unruly behavior). All fielders must have a cup on hand or nearby. A batter must have a (somewhat) filled cup while at bat. Upon hitting the ball, the batter must scoop up their cup, run to 1B with it. A fielder may field the ball; if the ball or the fielder knocks over their own cup in the process, spilling the beer, the batter is automatically safe on "Inter-beer-ance". If the batter arrives at 1B with an empty cup, and the ball arrives, he/she is Out because the ball beat the beer to 1B.

Refills between plays by fielders are allowed. The Keg at 2B (2nd Barrel) was routinely used for this. Its real reason lay in doubles, triples, and potential HR's.

Having touched 1B with beer in cup, the BR could drink it or spill it before advancing to 2B. If he/she carried it beyond a touch at 2B, there would have to be beer in the cup in order to be safe at 3B or Home (the ball beats the beer). So even if a Batter smacked a long one, and the Outfielders were chasing it down, the BR would have to either run cautiously so as to have beer when he/she arrived at Home, or refill it at 2B or at Home Plate Keg prior to the ball arriving at Home. Failure to have beer-in-cup, and touch home, prior to the ball touching Home was an Out.

There were a lot of doubles.

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