Balk Question

[walnutz]

13U pitcher had a balk called on him the other night. He came set, lifted his leg  - his hands broke(i.e. ball came out of glove) he tapped the ball back in the glove and then threw. Similar to Jason Motte, Jake Arietta etc. I am wondering if this is truly a balk as he has been doing it for some time and this was the first time it had been called on him. Also a number of big leaguers do it but that doesn't always mean it is right as the rules enforcement at the big leagues can be different than in the youth games. 

Thanks in advance. 

[maven]

Once he's committed to pitch, it doesn't matter what he does with his hands. Sounds legal to me (at all levels).

[walnutz]

Thanks - seemed odd to me and like the ump was just looking for something perhaps. Our team ate it and it bought in a run. Actually two as the pitcher did the same thing on his next fastball and another run came across. Never going to win an argument so just let it go the other night but really was looking for reassurance. 

[grayhawk]

I've had varsity coaches try to convince me to call a balk on this.  Yeaaahh...no. 

[Aging_Arbiter]

30 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I've had varsity coaches try to convince me to call a balk on this.  Yeaaahh...no. 

Ditto

1 hour ago, maven said:

Once he's committed to pitch, it doesn't matter what he does with his hands

Was the response I gave that Varsity Coach.

[walnutz]

Glad i am not crazy. Hearing this from multiple folks here re confirms the level of sane i am. 

[ricka56]

As described, I don't have a balk either, but consider the possibility that the umpire saw something illegal that you didn't. 

[walnutz]

Ricka - Completely understand the thought there. There was a question from our coaches and the Umpires were very clear that it was the double tap of the ball. Said once the ball is out of the glove it can not re enter the glove for any reason. The explanation was audible enough for the folks behind the fences watching. 13U Championship game - last game of the day - so not a lot of folks at the yard anymore and everyone could hear. There was no doubt about why he called a balk. 

[maven]

27 minutes ago, walnutz said:

Said once the ball is out of the glove it can not re enter the glove for any reason.

[noumpere]

Maybe, and I wasn't there, he separated and rejoined his hands and THEN stated the motion with his legs.

[Richvee]

13 hours ago, noumpere said:

Maybe, and I wasn't there, he separated and rejoined his hands and THEN stated the motion with his legs.

I was thinking the same. Perhaps your umpire judged the hands came apart and then back together prior to any other movement to begin the pitching motion.

[Jimurray]

On 11/6/2017 at 2:01 PM, walnutz said:

He came set, lifted his leg  - his hands broke(i.e. ball came out of glove) he tapped the ball back in the glove and then threw.

Why would you both @noumpere and @Richvee think that was not what happened, considering the umpires explanation was " Said once the ball is out of the glove it can not re enter the glove for any reason." Coaches can not be trusted to describe things correctly but this one sounds accurate enough to say that, as described, the umps pulled sht out of their aass. It happens at amateur levels.

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Why would you both @noumpere and @Richvee think that was not what happened, considering the umpires explanation was " Said once the ball is out of the glove it can not re enter the glove for any reason." Coaches can not be trusted to describe things correctly but this one sounds accurate enough to say that, as described, the umps pulled sht out of their aass. It happens at amateur levels.

Because I've seen it happen.  At an NAIA tournament game.

 

And, I only provided it as one (of several) possibilities as to what happened, recognizing that *as described* the call was incorrect.

[Richvee]

 

On 11/7/2017 at 8:06 AM, walnutz said:

There was a question from our coaches and the Umpires were very clear that it was the double tap of the ball. Said once the ball is out of the glove it can not re enter the glove for any reason

Seems BOTH umpires were in agreement on this call. That makes me start looking for reasons for the call. 

When your umpires said " very clear that it was the double tap of the ball. Said once the ball is out of the glove it can not re enter the glove for any reason". Your question to the calling umpire should have been, something like..

"did he do that before he started his motion to pitch?" 

Their answer would let you know if they called it correctly by what they saw, or if they did indeed mess up the rule. 

[maven]

38 minutes ago, Richvee said:

When your umpires said " very clear that it was the double tap of the ball. Said once the ball is out of the glove it can not re enter the glove for any reason". Your question to the calling umpire should have been, something like..

"did he do that before he started his motion to pitch?" 

Their answer would let you know if they called it correctly by what they saw, or if they did indeed mess up the rule. 

I disagree, Rich. It's kind of a trick question: removing the ball from the glove IS starting the pitching motion. He could not possibly have done it BEFORE starting the pitching motion.

I suppose he might have balked some other way, such as coming set again. But that would not explain the umpires' remark.

Look, I try to be as charitable as the next guy, but the question that was brought to us was basically NOT "did these umpires get it right." We'd need video for that, as well as hearing from the umpires what exactly they called.

Rather, the question is, "can F1 legally tap the ball in his glove during a pitch?" And the answer is yes.

 

[txump81]

Along the same lines...
Pitcher steps on rubber with ball in glove and goes into stretch. Can he pull ball out before coming set or is it a balk? I've had some say he is OK in the stretch just like the shoulder turn and others say balk it. He isn't trying to deceive anyone...just a habit. Trying to get some clarification from the experts. And yes I have read the rule.

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[Stk004]

19 minutes ago, txump81 said:

Along the same lines...
Pitcher steps on rubber with ball in glove and goes into stretch. Can he pull ball out before coming set or is it a balk? I've had some say he is OK in the stretch just like the shoulder turn and others say balk it. He isn't trying to deceive anyone...just a habit. Trying to get some clarification from the experts. And yes I have read the rule.

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As long as it's momentary in nature he's fine. He can briefly adjust the ball or move it to his pitching hand, and this usually has quite a bit of leniency. 

[Jimurray]

47 minutes ago, txump81 said:

Along the same lines...
Pitcher steps on rubber with ball in glove and goes into stretch. Can he pull ball out before coming set or is it a balk? I've had some say he is OK in the stretch just like the shoulder turn and others say balk it. He isn't trying to deceive anyone...just a habit. Trying to get some clarification from the experts. And yes I have read the rule.

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Reaching into the glove while taking the rubber or looking in for the sign should qualify as a momentary adjustment even though FED does not use that term. But there is a caseplay that will help you to determine when it is a balk:

"6.1.3 SITUATION E: 

With R1 on first, F1, in a set-position stance with the ball in his gloved hand and his pitching hand at his side, takes his sign. He removes the ball from his glove and goes to a set position. 

RULING: This is a balk."

You will not be able to convince some of the literal rule readers in your group that argue any motion to put hands together is coming set.

[KenBAZ]

Reaching into the glove while taking the rubber or looking in for the sign should qualify as a momentary adjustment even though FED does not use that term. But there is a caseplay that will help you to determine when it is a balk:
"6.1.3 SITUATION E: 

With R1 on first, F1, in a set-position stance with the ball in his gloved hand and his pitching hand at his side, takes his sign. He removes the ball from his glove and goes to a set position. 

RULING: This is a balk."
You will not be able to convince some of the literal rule readers in your group that argue any motion to put hands together is coming set.

Pitchers need to be taught to engage the rubber with the ball where they want it and the hands separated. If they do that and have the ball in their glove they can reach in and make a brief adjustment. Not if the engage with the ball in their glove then want to pull it out to hold in their hand.

From a practical perspective if a team is going 1st move on a lefty and he reaches in his glove to get the ball then separates his hands, the runner is going. Also, most defensive coaches want the ball in the throwing hand when F1 engages as it allows him to have more variety in his pick off moves.

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[Richvee]

4 hours ago, maven said:

I disagree, Rich. It's kind of a trick question: removing the ball from the glove IS starting the pitching motion. He could not possibly have done it BEFORE starting the pitching motion.

I suppose he might have balked some other way, such as coming set again. But that would not explain the umpires' remark.

Look, I try to be as charitable as the next guy, but the question that was brought to us was basically NOT "did these umpires get it right." We'd need video for that, as well as hearing from the umpires what exactly they called.

Rather, the question is, "can F1 legally tap the ball in his glove during a pitch?" And the answer is yes.

 

Good points. Once again, I stand corrected. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, KenBAZ said:

Pitchers need to be taught to engage the rubber with the ball where they want it and the hands separated. If they do that and have the ball in their glove they can reach in and make a brief adjustment. Not if the engage with the ball in their glove then want to pull it out to hold in their hand.

From a practical perspective if a team is going 1st move on a lefty and he reaches in his glove to get the ball then separates his hands, the runner is going. Also, most defensive coaches want the ball in the throwing hand when F1 engages as it allows him to have more variety in his pick off moves.

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The difference being?

[KenBAZ]

The difference is that if he reaches into his glove to spin the ball for a different grip he knows what he's doing. If he engages then wants to transfer the ball from one hand to the other it's not a momentary adjustment.

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[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, KenBAZ said:

The difference is that if he reaches into his glove to spin the ball for a different grip he knows what he's doing. If he engages then wants to transfer the ball from one hand to the other it's not a momentary adjustment.

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What rule requires you to know what you are doing?

[noumpere]

12 hours ago, KenBAZ said:

The difference is that if he reaches into his glove to spin the ball for a different grip he knows what he's doing. If he engages then wants to transfer the ball from one hand to the other it's not a momentary adjustment.

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Isn't that true only in OBR (which was probably the rules set in the OP) and only in the windup?  (No, I didn't go check.)