How in the world can you change that call?

[ricka56]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

You saw the catcher drop the ball in real time.  I call extreme bullsh*# if in real time you discerned that the ball hit the ground, then the glove, then the ground again.   You can barely see that in slow-mo.

Yet, I did...from a centerfield camera and U1, U2, and U3 had even better views. 

One sound is definitely mitt, so the other sound is either ground or bat (and it can't be both) . Any one of them seeing and communicating ball hitting ground could have save the crew.  

[hbk314]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Not without replay - even the replay is incredibly close, in slow motion...in fact, all three of the infield umps could have easily and conceivably argued the ball never hit the ground, in real time.   If Wolf got that info from the crew, then it would be easy for him to convince himself the two sounds were bat/glove.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm very tired, but wouldn't that make it a foul tip for strike three in their eyes?

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, hbk314 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm very tired, but wouldn't that make it a foul tip for strike three in their eyes?

The catcher dropped the ball

[Richvee]

Is there any chance Wolff had a foul tip..(thought he heard bat/glove) and went to his crew to see if they had the ball hitting the ground?

[udbrky]

He called it a strike in the game. He didn't call it foul. He only went to the crew when Granderson and Roberts complained.

[lawump]

On 10/19/2017 at 12:36 AM, VolUmp said:

MIKE WINTERS, as the Crew Chief, should not have allowed this, and he should be fined.  Not just reprimanded, but fined.  If he's not, then it's a travesty.

Are you serious?  Fined for what?  For allowing a plate umpire, who at some point (and for whatever reason) became unsure of his call, to seek help from his crew mates???

In fact,  what occurred is EXACTLY what the MLBUM tells them to do in such a situation.  The problem is that sometimes, even after consultation with other humans, a human gets a call wrong.  After all, they are....human.

Back to your quote above...Winters was doing exactly what he was instructed to do.  You may wish (as you indicated in your post) for an umpire to live and die with certain calls (I think you wrote (to paraphrase): "as they have done for the last 150 years"), but those days are gone.  And it really doesn't matter what your opinion is (and it doesn't matter what my opinion is) about this change in umpiring philosophy that has occurred over the last 15-20 years.  The point I am attempting to make is that Winters, and the crew, did exactly what his/their bosses want him/them to do.  If you think this procedure is wrong, then your post should vent at the front office and not at the crew chief who followed those procedures written by his bosses.  If anything, he is likely to be commended by the front office...both for allowing the crew to get together and his calm demeanor (and long rope) in handling Maddon.

I would bet money, however, that there is likely to be a change in the replay rule, soon.

[Mudisfun]

Considering Granderson couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat this post season... I was surprised they even gave him the time of day to listen to his pleas...

 

 

[VolUmp]

7 hours ago, lawump said:

I would bet money, however, that there is likely to be a change in the replay rule, soon.

OK, Law. I deserve the “spanking.”

The day after, I read all the details of the initial call, the requests for help, the conference with the crew, overturning it, the ejection, and Wolf admitting he blew the call. At least I’ll say … I was starting my complaints with a false premise.

Wolf ruled that strike 3 was a foul tip, and thus, caught by Contreras.  Grandy, therefore, was not pleading that he contacted the ball … he was pleading that the “tip” was not caught.  Wolf, evidently, granted Grandy and Roberts’ request to seek help. 

So … Wolf was asking if the pitch was caught after the supposed tip, and he got enough “NOs” that he changed the call from Strike 3 on a Foul Tip to a simple Foul Ball.  I get it now.  Wolf was also working from a false premise.

There is no doubt that seeing the pitch hit the ground from 100+ feet away is more likely than seeing/hearing a slight tip from 100+ feet away.

I understand that Maddon had replay available to him (and the crew legally didn’t).  I understand that Maddon imploring them to look at the replay on the Jumbotron was futile since it’s not a reviewable call, and it was just unfortunate that Wolf missed the “phantom” tip which made the non-catch moot with Puig occupying 1B.

Yes, this has to become reviewable by the crew — not necessarily a Manager’s challenge — and just like with the NFL, once you view replay, you can look at all aspects — not just the “original” reason for going to replay.  (This would have fixed everything in this instance). There’s something very wrong about the institution of replay, then expanding replay over time, but then putting a choke collar on it for a call such as this.

When they use replay to review a call of ball or strike that was not swung on, THEN I’ll say that AI has ruined the essence of the game.  I don’t wanna see balls and strikes reviewed, and I don’t was to see a robot with an infrared strike zone calling balls and strikes.  Karl Ravich annoys me that he is petitioning for this.

Best wishes to the Dodgers.  I’ll say that they owned the Cubs this NLCS.

[VolUmp]

21 hours ago, Richvee said:

Is there any chance Wolff had a foul tip..(thought he heard bat/glove) and went to his crew to see if they had the ball hitting the ground?

Not only a chance, but precisely what happened. 

[Richvee]

13 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Not only a chance, but precisely what happened. 

I thought the overall consensus was Wolf had a swing and miss strike 3. (correct call)(drop didn't matter, 1B occupied), and he went for help to see if they had a foul ball? 

[VolUmp]

18 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I thought the overall consensus was Wolf had a swing and miss strike 3. (correct call)(drop didn't matter, 1B occupied), and he went for help to see if they had a foul ball? 

See my lengthy post (about 3 posts above this). 

I thought as you did until I read all the comments the day after game 4 by Wolf, Roberts, Maddon, and others.

Wolf initially had a foul-tip and by definition, a catch .... and Strike 3.

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

See my lengthy post (about 3 posts above this). 

I thought as you did until I read all the comments the day after game 4 by Wolf, Roberts, Maddon, and others.

Wolf initially had a foul-tip and by definition, a catch .... and Strike 3.

I didn't see a foul tip signal from Wolf. If one of his crew thought Wolf had a foul tip, without seeing it signaled, then it was incumbent on them to give a crew determined signal that the ball was on the ground or he needed to consult with them. It's possible with the noise and everything and his responding to Granderson and Roberts that Wolf did not see an initial signal and after talking with Roberts he turned and saw the magic sign from his crew. But the foul tip story doesn't make sense with what Wolf signaled on the field. Who is saying that Wolf had a foul tip origionally. 

[ricka56]

5 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Wolf ruled that strike 3 was a foul tip, and thus, caught by Contreras.  Grandy, therefore, was not pleading that he contacted the ball … he was pleading that the “tip” was not caught.  Wolf, evidently, granted Grandy and Roberts’ request to seek help. 

So … Wolf was asking if the pitch was caught after the supposed tip, and he got enough “NOs” that he changed the call from Strike 3 on a Foul Tip to a simple Foul Ball.  

Please cite the post game crew comments that would lead to this conclusion.

I  think you got this wrong. If Wolf originally had a foul tip near the ground, he would have (should have) given a foul tip mechanic. Instead he just gave a K3 mechanic (1B occupied/1 out)...F2 catching the pitch in flight was not necessary.

I heard that Wolf made statements. Did he or any of the crew face a video camera ? Anyone got a link to that ? 

[VolUmp]

13 hours ago, ricka56 said:

If Wolf originally had a foul tip near the ground, he would have (should have) given a foul tip mechanic.

Yes, he should have. No, he didn’t. Just like Doug Eddings shouldn’t have called a strike with a fist bang, followed by a 2nd fist bang (presumably OUT) with AJ at the plate, then later cop out with, “I never called him out. I’m open to reviewing my mechanics. To make them clearer.”

At least Wolf said, “I blew the call” rights after the game when he saw the replay.

Eddings screwed up and couldn’t admit it — period. He 2nd guessed himself only because AJ ran hard to 1B.

[VolUmp]

6 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

 

14 hours ago, VolUmp said:

 

Please cite the post game crew comments that would lead to this conclusion.

I  think you got this wrong.

 

OK. I’m back to my original post. 

CHICAGO TRIBUNE: Oct 17

“Granderson argued with Wolf he nicked the ball for a foul, and Dodgers manager Dave Roberts asked the umpires to confer. They did, and without the aid of a review, the call was changed to a foul ball.

“After talking with the crew (I was told) the ball did not necessarily bounce, but it hit the ground the same time as (it hit) the mitt,” Wolf told a pool reporter. “After hearing that, then I heard two distinct separate sounds. And after hearing from the crew that the ball did not bounce — it did hit the ground but it did not bounce — I basically talked myself into ‘He did foul tip it.’ ... And after looking at it, I was dead wrong. I talked myself into the whole thing.”

I’m done. Wolf screwed up badly. At least he quelled things by admitting it. 

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Yes, he should have. No, he didn’t. Just like Doug Eddings shouldn’t have called a strike with a fist bang, followed by a 2nd fist bang (presumably OUT) with AJ at the plate, then later cop out with, “I never called him out. I’m open to reviewing my mechanics. To make them clearer.”

At least Wolf said, “I blew the call” rights after the game when he saw the replay.

Eddings screwed up and couldn’t admit it — period. He 2nd guessed himself only because AJ ran hard to 1B.

I don't think he said "I blew the call." I would infer from what he did say that he did not origionnally have a foul tip:

“After talking with the crew (I was told) the ball did not necessarily bounce, but it hit the ground the same time as (it hit) the mitt,” Wolf told a pool reporter. “After hearing that, then I heard two distinct separate sounds. And after hearing from the crew that the ball did not bounce — it did hit the ground but it did not bounce — I basically talked myself into ‘He did foul tip it.’ ... And after looking at it, I was dead wrong. I talked myself into the whole thing.”

[VolUmp]

12 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I don't think he said "I blew the call." I would infer from what he did say that he did not origionnally have a foul tip:

“After talking with the crew (I was told) the ball did not necessarily bounce, but it hit the ground the same time as (it hit) the mitt,” Wolf told a pool reporter. “After hearing that, then I heard two distinct separate sounds. And after hearing from the crew that the ball did not bounce — it did hit the ground but it did not bounce — I basically talked myself into ‘He did foul tip it.’ ... And after looking at it, I was dead wrong. I talked myself into the whole thing.”

May I ask what the hell is the difference?

[ricka56]

1 hour ago, VolUmp said:

May I ask what the hell is the difference?

The difference is:
"we" think that he originally had the call right (K3) and talked himself into the wrong call (foul ball). 
you think he originally had the call wrong (foul tip/K3) and changed it wrongly again to foul ball. 

But the real difference? none. Just an embarrassing sitch either way.

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, VolUmp said:

May I ask what the hell is the difference?

You quoted something he did not say. What he said was "I was dead wrong". Unless he said what you quoted in another statement in addition to the "dead wrong" statement.

The other difference is what you admit to. He did not have a foul tip.

 

P

 

 

[VolUmp]

5 hours ago, Jimurray said:

You quoted something he did not say. What he said was "I was dead wrong". Unless he said what you quoted in another statement in addition to the "dead wrong" statement.

The other difference is what you admit to. He did not have a foul tip.

OK ... all points taken. 

What I learned from this is ... those sources "quoting" Wolf who had not spoken to him directly cannot be trusted.  Those who accurately (on a recording) quoted him as saying he talked himself into changing the call were accurate.

That brings me back to what I thought happened from the very beginning in real time, which is very disappointing.

1) Grandy argued for something that he knew didn't happen.

2) Wolf had his confidence shaken and "appeased" Grandy and Roberts.

3) Winters allowed the poor procedure to continue.  I absolutely don't believe U3 or U1 "saw" a tip that didn't happen.

4) Forget my assertion that they should be fined.  It just plain sucks.

5) I believe in the adage, "Tell it all, Tell it now, Tell it yourself," which is what Wolf did right after the game.  Kudos for Wolf.

[stl_ump]

Is there video available for this?

[ricka56]

2 hours ago, stl_ump said:

Is there video available for this?

The second video has the original play/call/conference/reversal ...the first is just the EJ

http://www.closecallsports.com/2017/10/mlb-ejection-p-3-mike-winters-3-joe.html#more

[udbrky]

100% was called a swinging K, then he called time to get a new ball.