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VolUmp

Improper footwork on pitch

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FED Rules

R3. 1 out. 

Pitcher assumes what looks like the Set with his feet, but the windup with his hands (together with ball in glove).

He rocks back on his non-pivot foot, rocks his weight back to his pivot foot, steps to the batter and delivers a pitch.

IOW ... he pitches like he would from the windup, but he starts in an improper stance. 

1) How should this be handled in FED?

2) How is it different with no runners on?

I've seen many posters state this is neither a balk nor an illegal pitch, but if he pitches from an illegal stance, it has to be corrected somehow. 

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Was this the way he was pitching from the windup from the start of the game? The reason I ask is, if you're going to enforce the hybrid windup in a FED game, enforce it from pitch one. The rock back with his free foot that started in front of the rubber is illegal in FED. You can't take a rock step from the set position, and according to FED rules, if the free foot is in front of the rubber, he is, by definition in the set position. Ball it the first time you see it. Now, in summer ball under FED rules, a lot of these tournaments do not enforce this particular FED rule. This is where the R3 situation gets dicey because in FED, he cannot throw to a base from the windup. If I'm doing one of these type summer FED rule games, and he's been "winding up" all game with the free foot starting in front of the rubber, then he's OK. However, he throws to 3B from this start, it's a FED balk. 

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1 hour ago, VolUmp said:

Pitcher assumes what looks like the Set with his feet, but the windup with his hands (together with ball in glove).

Stop right there. He can't take the rubber with his hands together. That's a "don't do that." Nothing else happens.

If he takes the rubber legally and then brings his hands together, then he has come set.

If he next takes a rocker step, then he has stepped toward a base. A RHP must deliver a throw to 1B; a LHP can feint to 3B, but must disengage before pitching. Pitching to the batter would be a balk in both cases.

With no runners, this is an illegal pitch the moment he takes a rocker step. The ball is dead at that point, and a ball is added to the batter's count.

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3 hours ago, VolUmp said:
5 hours ago, Richvee said:

if you're going to enforce the hybrid windup in a FED game,

So what's your point? You going to tell me with 159 tournament games on your "resume" this year alone that none of them played under FED rules but allowed the hybrid windup?  Don't play the High and Mighty Holier than Thou "Not on my watch," or "not in my neck of the woods"  card either....Geez, I've watch perfect game national tournies  on TV, umpired Triple Crown Tournies...all under FED rules, and all make exceptions in their tourny rules for the hybrid.

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Rich,

Calm down. Please. 

I tried to reply from the park with my phone last night and I lost my signal. I had a whole paragraph that didn't come through. 

I'm talking about coaches who've never heard the word HYBRID. That's why I specifically did not use the word in my OP.  

This is an actual Fall League — not a tournament — so the coaches are not Varsity or even JV Coaches. They are mostly former college and pro players who have never coached HS and certainly never read the HS books. No exceptions to FED rules are made.

Thank you, Maven and Rich.

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13 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Rich,

Calm down. Please. 

I tried to reply from the park with my phone last night and I lost my signal. I had a whole paragraph that didn't come through. 

I'm talking about coaches who've never heard the word HYBRID. That's why I specifically did not use the word in my OP.  

This is an actual Fall League — not a tournament — so the coaches are not Varsity or even JV Coaches. They are mostly former college and pro players who have never coached HS and certainly never read the HS books. No exceptions to FED rules are made.

Thank you, Maven and Rich.

No worries. It's all good. My main point is, if you're going to enforce it, catch it early, and nip it in the bud. Like Catch and others have said. The earlier the better. If you see it and can address it before a real pitch is even thrown in the game, all the better. If the first time F1 does it is when there's an R3, balk it. 

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I had a summer league FED rules DH over the summer. JV level players and coaches. I had plate first game. The reliever in the 5th is warming up Hybrid style, no stop. I tell the catcher to remind the pitcher he has to stop in set position..he does and no problems....

Game 2, same team, I'm BU. I see their starter doing the same thing in warmups Inning 1. I come down and tell the PU what I got. He tells me its OK in this league. I know its not in the rules this way, so I ask him why he thinks that, and he says its always been that way... So he allows the kid to not stop in Hybrid with nobody on. It turns out, the pitcher sets up the same way with runners on, but adds a stop to come to set. But of course, he continously "forgets" to stop and I am balking him almost every inning. Coach never asks me what I am seeing, although I do declare "no stop" on each balk and make sure i am accessible for the part of each half inning warmup near his dugout. That team is down 1-0 in the 5th, runner on third, and the pitcher doesn't stop again. I balk in run number 2. I wind up having it out with the coach, who I could have maybe tossed, but we both knew the kid balked every time, so I had the best of the toe to toe exchange.

Man was I p@@@ed off at my partner.. So I concur, try to nip it in the bud during warmups if you can

 

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When I see the hybrid being used and it's legal, I'll usually talk to the coach between innings, letting him know what I'm seeing - that it's legal at this level/league/ruleset, but that I would be calling a balk in a high school game. I've only ever had one coach tell me they didn't care. Most are quite appreciative.

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14 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

When I see the hybrid being used and it's legal, I'll usually talk to the coach between innings, letting him know what I'm seeing - that it's legal at this level/league/ruleset, but that I would be calling a balk in a high school game. I've only ever had one coach tell me they didn't care. Most are quite appreciative.

I'll do the same thing in summer ball. I'll tell the coach, and a lot of times I get "Well, this isn't high school". When I get that response, I make sure I  tell the F1 at some point, "You know, you're OK in this league, but in a High school game you can't wind up with that free foot in front of the rubber." Some kids tell me me "Yeah, I  know", others looked a bit bewildered and want to know how to do it right for high school. Many summer league coaches who don't actually coach high school have no idea. 

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1 hour ago, BobUmp said:

I had a summer league FED rules DH over the summer. JV level players and coaches. I had plate first game. The reliever in the 5th is warming up Hybrid style, no stop. I tell the catcher to remind the pitcher he has to stop in set position..he does and no problems....

Game 2, same team, I'm BU. I see their starter doing the same thing in warmups Inning 1. I come down and tell the PU what I got. He tells me its OK in this league. I know its not in the rules this way, so I ask him why he thinks that, and he says its always been that way... So he allows the kid to not stop in Hybrid with nobody on. It turns out, the pitcher sets up the same way with runners on, but adds a stop to come to set. But of course, he continously "forgets" to stop and I am balking him almost every inning. Coach never asks me what I am seeing, although I do declare "no stop" on each balk and make sure i am accessible for the part of each half inning warmup near his dugout. That team is down 1-0 in the 5th, runner on third, and the pitcher doesn't stop again. I balk in run number 2. I wind up having it out with the coach, who I could have maybe tossed, but we both knew the kid balked every time, so I had the best of the toe to toe exchange.

Man was I p@@@ed off at my partner.. So I concur, try to nip it in the bud during warmups if you can

 

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I'm confused. Hybrid refers to an illegal, in FED, foot position in the windup. If your pitchers were in the set position, open, normal or closed free foot and pitched as in the set that is not a hybrid. Many of us would not look very hard with no one on to see a stop.

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Sorry maybe I explained it poorly. He was Hybrid for noone on, basically started standing sideways with back foot on and front foot forwards, and then brought his hands together and up to his head, then down together while lifting the front leg to start the pitch, with no stop.

His SET with men on was the same EXCEPT he would not lift the leg at the beginning of the hands drop, then he would stop hands together somewhere between chest and belt, then lift the leg and start the pitch. Problem was every once in awhile he would not stop with men on and/or lift the leg and start the pitch while bringing the hands down, like with no men on. So it was a balk all the way with men on, and also it was a hybrid windup with no men on, because the front foot was off the rubber and forward and he was standing sideways like a traditional set, only with no stop.. I hope I explained it better now!

 

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31 minutes ago, BobUmp said:

Sorry maybe I explained it poorly. He was Hybrid for noone on, basically started standing sideways with back foot on and front foot forwards, and then brought his hands together and up to his head, then down together while lifting the front leg to start the pitch, with no stop.

His SET with men on was the same EXCEPT he would not lift the leg at the beginning of the hands drop, then he would stop hands together somewhere between chest and belt, then lift the leg and start the pitch. Problem was every once in awhile he would not stop with men on and/or lift the leg and start the pitch while bringing the hands down, like with no men on. So it was a balk all the way with men on, and also it was a hybrid windup with no men on, because the front foot was off the rubber and forward and he was standing sideways like a traditional set, only with no stop.. I hope I explained it better now!

 

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If he was hybrid with no one on, this is illegal, regardless of when he starts his foot motion.

And, if he was "the same" in the set, this is also illegal.

Perhaps you meant "he was in the set position with no one one ..."

 

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If he was hybrid with no one on, this is illegal, regardless of when he starts his foot motion.
And, if he was "the same" in the set, this is also illegal.
Perhaps you meant "he was in the set position with no one one ..."
 
By FED rules, yes, essentially he was in set, and with no stop. When i told my PU during warmups he elected to allow it (no stop) with no one on, which led to the problems later

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1 minute ago, BobUmp said:

By FED rules, yes, essentially he was in set, and with no stop. When i told my PU during warmups he elected to allow it (no stop) with no one on, which led to the problems later

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3

Either he was or he wasn't.  There's no "essentially" here.  And, "set" is not the same as "hybrid."

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Hmmmm, I've got Hybrid as feet in set position as defined in FED, as front foot off and in front of the rubber, with windup motion, ie no stop and maybe a rocking or other windupy motion to start the pitch. He did that with noone on. His set was same starting feet location, legal for set, but he added a stop for his hands together before starting his pitching motion, with men on. Aok also. He balked when he went back to no stop and or lifted his leg to pitch before stopping (a mistake by him)..

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7 minutes ago, BobUmp said:

By FED rules, yes, essentially he was in set, and with no stop. When i told my PU during warmups he elected to allow it (no stop) with no one on, which led to the problems later

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You do know that only FED requires a stop with no runners on? So, if you were using non FED rules your partner would be correct and the continuous balks would not be caused by your partner not requiring a stop with no one on.

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You do know that only FED requires a stop with no runners on? So, if you were using non FED rules your partner would be correct and the continuous balks would not be caused by your partner not requiring a stop with no one on.
Yes, true! This happened to be FED. When i came down and told my partner, who is senior to me, he stated that for this league they ignore the hybrid with noone on. But its not written anywhere, so I still dont know where he got that other than he has done a lot more games fornthe league than I. I deferred to his seniority, but IMO we lost a chance to avoid an issue early, because maybe the kid adds a stop to every pitch, and avoids "mistakes".
Its also possible he was at least some times purposefully lifting early and not stopping to deceive, and was used to getting away with it


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51 minutes ago, BobUmp said:

Hmmmm, I've got Hybrid as feet in set position as defined in FED, as front foot off and in front of the rubber, with windup motion,


 

1

"Hybrid" has everything to do with feet position, and nothing to do with the motion after that.  It doesn't mean "wind up from the set position" or "set from the wind up position."

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1 hour ago, BobUmp said:

Hmmmm, I've got Hybrid as feet in set position as defined in FED...

Incorrect. Hybrid is any position that satisfies the requirements of neither the windup nor the set, which are defined strictly in terms of the feet position.

Windup: With F1 facing the batter, the pivot foot must be in contact with the rubber (6-1-1). The non-pivot foot "shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate" (6-1-2). The various versions of the hybrid fail to satisfy the windup position's requirement for the non-pivot, when F1 has it in front of said line.

Set: Again, the pivot must be in contact with the rubber (6-1-1). The set constrains the position of both feet: F1 "shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of and parrallel [sic] to the pitcher's plate" (6-1-3). The hybrid fails to satisfy the set position's requirement for the pivot, typically having the pivot NOT parallel to the rubber.

Because the hybrid fails to satisfy the requirements of either position, it is an illegal position no matter how F1 subsequently moves. Note that merely taking the rubber in the hybrid stance is NOT an infraction. From this illegal position, he may legally disengage or step and throw to a base (these actions have their own constraints, triggered by engaging the rubber, regardless of stance). But if he begins his motion to pitch, then the ball is dead at that moment, and he is charged with an illegal pitch (6-2-4c, ball to the batter with no runners; balk with runners).

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It's f---ing ridiculous for kids to pitch differently in summer ball than in HS ball. These are habits that are hard to break. Going back and forth between rule sets is for the birds. 

High School can keep the safety rules for deflecting lawsuits ... everything else ... starting with the God-Forsaken "All Balks are Dead" rule, need to be changed to coincide with MLB.

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Your pointless and repetitious vituperation against FED is neither informative nor interesting. If you don't like FED, don't work it. A lot of people don't. In the meantime, these posts do not represent your best contributions to this forum.

It is, of course, just my opinion that you have far better contributions to make. You are, alas, free to post whatever you wish (within the constraints of the moderators).

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10 hours ago, VolUmp said:

It's f---ing ridiculous for kids to pitch differently in summer ball than in HS ball. These are habits that are hard to break. Going back and forth between rule sets is for the birds. 

High School can keep the safety rules for deflecting lawsuits ... everything else ... starting with the God-Forsaken "All Balks are Dead" rule, need to be changed to coincide with MLB.

How's that OBR balk rule change going in your state? They gonna apply for a waiver with FED. You might add the pitching foot restrictions also.

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Yes, true! This happened to be FED. When i came down and told my partner, who is senior to me, he stated that for this league they ignore the hybrid with noone on. But its not written anywhere, so I still dont know where he got that other than he has done a lot more games fornthe league than I. I deferred to his seniority, but IMO we lost a chance to avoid an issue early, because maybe the kid adds a stop to every pitch, and avoids "mistakes".
Its also possible he was at least some times purposefully lifting early and not stopping to deceive, and was used to getting away with it


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Which is why states that instruct umpires to ignore the hybrid with no runners...cough**Michigan**cough...should rethink that ridiculous position.
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