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Kneeling for National Anthem

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4 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Kaepernick was NOT showing bravery ... rather, stupidity.

If Kaepernick had chosen a tangible target to protest, been able to express a clear path toward correcting the injustice he perceived, and acted in a way that was notable without being inflammatory, I think he would have been much closer to "brave."

Instead he took a nebulous "racial injustice awareness" stance, indicated that he would continue until the flag "represented what it was supposed to represent," and manifested it all in a behavior that drew attention not to the cause or the change he wanted to see, but to the behavior itself and to Kaepernick personally.

This was a "protest" that may have been rooted in noble ideals, but it was implemented in a phenomenally poor way from almost any reasonable viewpoint.

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Since this thread was brought back up, I thought I would share what our state leadership has said in regards to players or coaches kneeling during the national anthem of HS games.  We have been told that no rule is being broken and that we have no authority to penalize the kneeler in any way.  I agree with this position as the rules are currently written.  Agree or disagree with kneeling, it's simply not within our jurisdiction to take action.

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Has anyone seen a stand-off?  This seems to be getting a great deal of attention in Ohio this year.   I've never seen it at any level, except MLB. 

The MLB times I've seen is more of a good-natured goofing off between teams.  They left the foul line but then stand by the dugout steps until the other team gives in or the first pitch is ready to be dealt.  Both sides were grinning and the MLB umps ignored it as the players weren't in play or by the line.  I'm sure they'd have stopped it before first pitch, but they seemed to let it go (pick your battles).   Once the pitcher was ready, the player(s) stepped down into the dugout and the game progressed as it normally would.

Ohio wants us to squash it immediately if we see it.  Says it is unsportsmanlike and we aren't to tolerate it.  I guess I had a different view of it until considering the kneeling dilemma.

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26 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

Has anyone seen a stand-off? 

Yes -- a few times in college.  Just the kind of BS that gets the game off to a bad start.

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I had it happen this pass Saturday at a JC game. Visiting team stayed on the line. I told them to stand down or they would be ejected. Had to tell them twice. The rules state that if they don't stand down, the head coach and the offending participants are to be ejected. This crap started at the D1 level and has slowly been drifting down. I've seen a few  HS players do this.

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13 minutes ago, Forest Ump said:

I had it happen this pass Saturday at a JC game. Visiting team stayed on the line. I told them to stand down or they would be ejected. Had to tell them twice. The rules state that if they don't stand down, the head coach and the offending participants are to be ejected. This crap started at the D1 level and has slowly been drifting down. I've seen a few  HS players do this.

Is it happening frequently enough to maybe just mention to coaches at plate meeting?    My first games are next week, so I'll be watching for it.  I didn't see it at any level in 80+ games last year.

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2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

Has anyone seen a stand-off?  This seems to be getting a great deal of attention in Ohio this year. 

I haven't, and I don't know of anyone personally who has. Yet our state is making it a POE.

I think more than anything else, it's a matter of "this is something we've heard is happening (whether in our state or elsewhere), and we want to get out in front of it".

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Yes, I have seen several attempts at standoffs at both the college and HS levels.  At the HS level, we have been instructed to tell the players to return to their dugouts.  If they don't listen, then we tell the head coach to get his players into the dugout.  If he doesn't comply, then he is to be restricted to the dugout for the rest of the game.

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I had it this past weekend in a D3 game, and just told the coaches that they better get them ready to play or I was issuing team warnings... not sure if that is what i should have done or if that has any rule backing. 

has the NCAA made any rules about stand-offs??

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31 minutes ago, White47 said:

I had it this past weekend in a D3 game, and just told the coaches that they better get them ready to play or I was issuing team warnings... not sure if that is what i should have done or if that has any rule backing. 

has the NCAA made any rules about stand-offs??

Yes they have.  Not to be harsh, but if you are working NCAA games, you should have access to the NCAA book and be able to look it up. (I get that if you are new to NCAA you might not have this rule memorized.)

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10 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Yes they have.  Not to be harsh, but if you are working NCAA games, you should have access to the NCAA book and be able to look it up. (I get that if you are new to NCAA you might not have this rule memorized.)

i looked on the searchable rules on arbiter, but was hyphenation standoff, so it wasn't pulling anything up.  

And I also didn't really know this was a thing until this year.

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This is under 5-15-a

 

5) In the case of a National Anthem standoff between the two teams, any umpire shall eject any player, coach, manager or team personnel for violations of the Coaching and Players’ Code of Ethics.

PENALTY for (5) The umpire-in-chief is to warn the head coach of the offending team(s) that should any player or team personnel not return to the dugout area immediately after the playing of the National Anthem, the head coach and offending person(s) will be ejected immediately. Note: This is a sportsmanship issue.

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11 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

Is it happening frequently enough to maybe just mention to coaches at plate meeting?    My first games are next week, so I'll be watching for it.  I didn't see it at any level in 80+ games last year.

I would not mention it at the plate meeting. Wait and see if anything happens. If it does, tell the head coach that they must stand down immediately or he and the offenders will be ejected. Let him know  that this is a POE this year and it is how the NCAA wants it handled. Maybe he'll get the idea and stop his players from doing it.

Hey Wolf....I'm adding this because I see you work HS only. Do what your assignor wants. What I stated is only for the NCAA.

 

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Some of you seem to be having all the fun. We just play baseball here!  

I saw the POE this year about standoffs and was amazed!  What is going on?!:mad:

 

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15 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

Has anyone seen a stand-off?  This seems to be getting a great deal of attention in Ohio this year.   I've never seen it at any level, except MLB. 

I had one last year. I don't remember the details other than I was U1 and my physical and vocal presence as I walked down to first was enough to get that team off the field.

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On 9/28/2017 at 7:52 PM, HokieUmp said:

Thanks for the credit;  does the assumption I'm an idiot come at no extra charge?

It is a fact, actually, that Fox News - and most of the rest of the conservative media - has led the charge in turning this from "hey, maybe cops shouldn't shoot unarmed black people in the early 21st century United States" to "we spit on the flag and the military that serve it."  And  I know it was the former, as the persons who first knelt explicitly said what their protest was about;  anyone whose emotional reaction to it turns it to the latter is, well, incorrect.

To your Cliff notes:  @lawump, being the actual lawyer, can tell you that "should" and "shall" have very different legal meanings.  Should is a recommendation word;  shall makes something "required."  So this isn't a legally enforceable set of instructions, bluntly.  And any attempt to enforce something like this - aside from making us look like Berlin in about 1936 - wouldn't survive the legal challenge, in my opinion.  Not least of which because of all the regularly occurring violations already mentioned.

More to my point:  my question wasn't "what's the legal aspects of this?"  It was "HOW is this disrespectful."  No one answers this.  And that makes it a FURTHER challenge to be enforceable, since that Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8 part says "No disrespect should be shown" - without a definition of what "disrespectful" is.  There has to be something to violate.  So.  Tell me how it's disrespectful.

[To me, any a LOT of other people, quietly kneeling during the anthem isn't showing disrespect to either the anthem or the flag.  Raising hell, or trying to play another song over it, or something like, would go a lot farther towards a definition of disrespect.]

(And since it seems that people often have to show their "bonafides" on this subject, I'm a 32+ year federal employee, 29 with the DoD, married to a 21-year USAF retiree.  I have skin in the game.  But I'm a HUGE fan of the Bill of Rights, and always a little suspicious of both overly pious behaviour AND over-the-top patriotism.  Don't get me started on that Lee Greenwood song.)

And @lawump - no charge for the "Perpetual Outrage Machine"

My thoughts about disrespect are the same as yours.  The asshats drinking their beer and carrying on loud conversations during the playing of our National Anthem are what's rude.  And stop having players on the field for the Anthem.  Just another way of making money, since my taxes are helping to pay for it.

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On 2/26/2018 at 9:14 AM, CJK said:

If Kaepernick had chosen a tangible target to protest, been able to express a clear path toward correcting the injustice he perceived, and acted in a way that was notable without being inflammatory, I think he would have been much closer to "brave."

Instead he took a nebulous "racial injustice awareness" stance, indicated that he would continue until the flag "represented what it was supposed to represent," and manifested it all in a behavior that drew attention not to the cause or the change he wanted to see, but to the behavior itself and to Kaepernick personally.

This was a "protest" that may have been rooted in noble ideals, but it was implemented in a phenomenally poor way from almost any reasonable viewpoint.

And obviously it did draw attention to his reasons or we wouldn't be talking about it.  It is my viewpoint as it is your viewpoint.

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11 hours ago, noumpere said:

Yes they have.  Not to be harsh, but if you are working NCAA games, you should have access to the NCAA book and be able to look it up. (I get that if you are new to NCAA you might not have this rule memorized.)

Agreed.  It's been around for awhile now.

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On 9/30/2017 at 6:44 PM, jjb said:

I don’t know. I was brought up different. I’m a Baby Boomer, born just after a war, and was brought up to know that there’s a “right” and a “wrong.” Even through the 60’s and 70’s, things were the same; what you did was “right” or what you did was “wrong”.

Now it’s a mess; the lines that I was brought up with are being deliberately blurred. Kill your parents? “Not your fault, it’s because you weren’t breast fed”. Kill your ex-wife and her boyfriend? “Not a problem, one of the cops used the N-word 5 years ago”. Try and take the gun from a police officer? “not your fault, your great-great-grandmother may have been a slave”. For crying out loud, you can’t even call your son “he” anymore, without being called a “bigot and Dr. Suess is a white supremacist!”.

It seems that virtually everything in the country that’s designed to bring us together is being deliberately cast side. No longer are we “Americans”. We are now, “---------americans (small “a”), “------privileged americans”, “rich” “marginalized” “fascist” and “supremacist”. We’ve been broken up into parts to be eliminated one at a time. It seems that everything that’s supposed to keep us together is being cast aside as “old”, “antiquated” and “racist”.

Now we’re looking at symbols of America. First, it was “the confederate flag”. “Racist, gotta go, tear them down”. It then morphed into “confederate statues”. “Racist, gotta go, tear them down”, Then, it was Jefferson, Washington, Columbus. No one is safe. Where does it end?

Now we’ve gotten into sports. The one thing that brings us together. A guy in a Raider shirt can sit next to a guy in a Charger shirt, and, (aside from a little good-natured ribbing), together watch a competition away from work, politics or just “the real world”. And the competition starts with everyone standing together, hands across hearts and TOGETHER hearing that we are one nation. We’ll break up into Patriots and Jets later, but, for now, we are one….

Now it’s changed. The National Anthem is being discarded as “antiquated”, “obsolete” and “racist”. Burning, spitting on or turning your back on the symbol of the country is now considered “courageous”. Holding your hand over your heart is now “promoting white supremacy”. Right is now wrong and wrong is now right. What is “legal” but “wrong” no longer matters, as  long as its “legal”  IMHO Screw legal, can we do what’s RIGHT?!

Well, thank God those people protested the war in Vietnam.  And by most conservative standards they were hippy anti american people.  I remember the "America. Love it or leave it" cries back then.  

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7 hours ago, umpstu said:

And obviously it did draw attention to his reasons or we wouldn't be talking about it.

Really?  Are people talking about racial inequality, racial oppression, and whether all forms and levels of government are truly operating as if "all [persons] are created equal", which were Kaepernick's stated goals?  Or are we talking about whether kneeling is appropriate/effective/inflammatory?

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I had it happen last year...crosstown rivalry game.  After the anthem we had the plate meeting and I noticed that a young AC on one side and a player on the other side stayed on the line.  We finished the plate meeting, I told both coaches that if those people were still on the line when the coach reached the dugout, the individual would be ejected and the coach restricted.  Both coaches had the same reaction "get in the dugout!".

When I shared this story with members of my association, they had never heard of this.I only knew about because of U-E.

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5 hours ago, CJK said:

Really?  Are people talking about racial inequality, racial oppression, and whether all forms and levels of government are truly operating as if "all [persons] are created equal", which were Kaepernick's stated goals?  Or are we talking about whether kneeling is appropriate/effective/inflammatory?

You are talking about it right here.  

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1 hour ago, umpstu said:

You are talking about it right here.

And if the goal had been to open a dialogue on whether people should kneel during the anthem, then the "protest" would have been an unequivocal success.

Alas, it was not, and so it has not.

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6 hours ago, CJK said:

And if the goal had been to open a dialogue on whether people should kneel during the anthem, then the "protest" would have been an unequivocal success.

Alas, it was not, and so it has not.

That was never the goal. 

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