Ball Hitting Top of Wall, Deflected Out by Fielder

[timelydew]

If a batted ball hits the top of the fence (yellow line) in a MLB park, what is the ruling if an outfielder deflects it out of play? If it comes back toward the field, is it a double? If it continues "out", HR?

This is the answer I received on umpire.org not long ago: "If the ball continues "out" then it's a HR. If the ball is deflected "back" toward home and is then again deflected out, it's a double."

Seems reasonable but I'm not sure.

Inspired by this (which shouldn't be a HR since the ball was deflected back toward the field off the wall, at least as I've been led to understand):

 

[Tborze]

2 minutes ago, timelydew said:

I feel like we're bonded by this crusade. Man has it been a bugger to find some answers.

Lol 

didn't I just post some?

now it's time for someone to prove us wrong. 

[timelydew]

1 minute ago, Tborze said:

Lol 

didn't I just post some?

now it's time for someone to prove us wrong. 

The one I'm most curious about is the ball hitting the top, continuing "forward" and being deflected back into play.

For us to even consider that play, we'd first have to determine if the direction of the bounce off the wall actually DOES matter. Seems to me you can't answer one without the other.

[CJK]

This discussion makes me wonder why the padding on the top of the wall is yellow, because it doesn't make sense.

If the padding on the front of the wall was yellow, and the ball hit it, it would be in play and no longer in flight.  If it hit the top of the wall and continued out, it would obviously have left the field of play in flight (before touching the top of the wall).  And if the ball came to rest on the top of the fence, it would be out of play and a home run (as it should be).

So why have a yellow line on the horizontal surface at the top of the wall?  Isn't that really the entire source of the problem?

[Tborze]

6 minutes ago, timelydew said:

The one I'm most curious about is the ball hitting the top, continuing "forward" and being deflected back into play.

For us to even consider that play, we'd first have to determine if the direction of the bounce off the wall actually DOES matter. Seems to me you can't answer one without the other.

That was a sitch I gave you for another thread. Let's not put too many eggs in one basket

I may be wrong on that because of the JR interp I posted.  IM me when you get a chance

 

[Jimurray]

23 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

I think that's a little different as it's hitting the fence and not the top of the fence. But I wish that this was reviewed so we would have clearly known what the MLB interp on this is.

From PBUC/MLBUM

"Unless...ground rule, a fair fly ball striking the top of the outfield wall and bounding back onto the playing field shall be treated the same as a fair fly ball that strikes the outfield wall and rebounds back onto the playing field (in play but may not be caught for the purpose of an out)"

But the wrinkle is it hit the top of the wall twice. I don't think that should make a difference. It never bounded over the wall. 

[Tborze]

10 minutes ago, CJK said:

This discussion makes me wonder why the padding on the top of the wall is yellow, because it doesn't make sense.

If the padding on the front of the wall was yellow, and the ball hit it, it would be in play and no longer in flight.  If it hit the top of the wall and continued out, it would obviously have left the field of play in flight (before touching the top of the wall).  And if the ball came to rest on the top of the fence, it would be out of play and a home run (as it should be).

So why have a yellow line on the horizontal surface at the top of the wall?  Isn't that really the entire source of the problem?

If it comes to rest on top of the wall it is not a HR. It's a GRD. The yellow is padding and defferentiates the playing field fence and other DB objects. 

[timelydew]

7 minutes ago, Tborze said:

That was a sitch I gave you for another thread. Let's not put too many eggs in one basket

I may be wrong on that because of the JR interp I posted.  IM me when you get a chance

 

I maintain that it's just a live ball and the play carries on as normal. That... just makes the most sense to me. Base awards in these cases are predicated on the ball actually leaving the field of play - a ball returning to the field of play in this particular manner to me denotes a live ball.

As for the original question, I am almost willing to give Carl Childress and his interp the benefit of the doubt.

https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/2055-ball-hits-wall-player-goes-over.html

(Of course you've seen this, just for others who have not; that being said, read it again carefully as I have and perhaps you'll come to my conclusion)

It does make sense - any ball hitting the top of the wall, and being deflected out of play by a fielder is a HR. Simple as that. If it hits the face of the wall, and is deflected out, GRD.

In reading through his answers again I don't think the direction of the initial carom matters at all. He simply says when it's deflected forward by the outstretched outfielder. This also lines up with @noumpere's answer, which does cover this albeit without mentioning what part of the wall was hit. To me, if you take this play and apply Carl's reasoning to it, you could indeed have a HR. It certainly would complicate things less and be infinitely more understandable and easy to rule upon.

[Tborze]

3 minutes ago, timelydew said:

I maintain that it's just a live ball and the play carries on as normal. That... just makes the most sense to me. Base awards in these cases are predicated on the ball actually leaving the field of play - a ball returning to the field of play in this particular manner to me denotes a live ball.

As for the original question, I am almost willing to give Carl Childress and his interp the benefit of the doubt.

https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/2055-ball-hits-wall-player-goes-over.html

(Of course you've seen this, just for others who have not)

It does make sense - any ball hitting the top of the wall, and being deflected out of play by a fielder is a HR. Simple as that. If it hits the face of the wall, and is deflected out, GRD.

In reading through his answers again I don't think the direction of the initial carom matters at all. He simply says when it's deflected forward by the outstretched outfielder. This also lines up with @noumpere's answer, which does cover this albeit without mentioning what part of the wall was hit. To me, if you take this play and apply Carl's reasoning to it, you could indeed have a HR. It certainly would complicate things less and be infinitely more understandable and easy to rule upon.

Based on the MLBUM that if a ball comes to rest on top of the wall it shall be ruled a GRD. So that, IMO, contradicts Mr. Childress' interp. 

But it confirms the other sitch where the fielder bats it back

[timelydew]

1 minute ago, Tborze said:

Based on the MLBUM that if a ball comes to rest on top of the wall it shall be ruled a GRD. So that, IMO, contradicts Mr. Childress' interp. 

But it confirms the other sitch where the fielder bats it back

I honestly don't know anymore. I guess I've almost conceded that the lack of uproar about the call might just equate to it being correct. All I can say is that his interp is the simplest way to rule upon it. It can be difficult to ascertain directions of caroms. I dunno

[Senor Azul]

From the 2013 Wendelstedt Rules and Interpretations Manual (p.139): 

The top of an outfield fence is out of play; however, any part of the facing of the fence is not. If a ball hits the fence, clearly on its facing, it is no longer in flight and the award would not be four bases. However, if the ball hits an area at the top of the fence, if it continues over the fence into a dead ball or spectator area, it should be adjudged as hitting the top of the fence. If, though, it does not continue over the fence, but instead, immediately returns to the playing field, it should be adjudged as never leaving the playing field. It would be left in play.

If a fielder grabs a ball on top of the fence before it has stopped, or before it has continued into a dead ball area, the ball will be alive and in play. Should the ball stop on top of the fence, the award will be four bases, as the ball is out of play.

[Jimurray]

53 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2013 Wendelstedt Rules and Interpretations Manual (p.139): 

The top of an outfield fence is out of play; however, any part of the facing of the fence is not. If a ball hits the fence, clearly on its facing, it is no longer in flight and the award would not be four bases. However, if the ball hits an area at the top of the fence, if it continues over the fence into a dead ball or spectator area, it should be adjudged as hitting the top of the fence. If, though, it does not continue over the fence, but instead, immediately returns to the playing field, it should be adjudged as never leaving the playing field. It would be left in play.

If a fielder grabs a ball on top of the fence before it has stopped, or before it has continued into a dead ball area, the ball will be alive and in play. Should the ball stop on top of the fence, the award will be four bases, as the ball is out of play.

Left hand doesn't agree with what the right hand is doing. That conflicts with PBUC/MLBUM in that year and with MLBUM this year. MLBUM even added a spectator interp this year which might help @timelydew with how to rule if the wall was low enough for a fielder to grab the stationary ball from the top of the wall.

 

Added to the interp this year:

"Unless otherwise provided by local ground rule, a fair fly ball striking the top of the outfield wall that in the umpires judgement would have bounded  over the wall if not for the permissible action of a spectator shall be ruled a home run. A fair fly ball that strikes the top of the outfield wall and is picked up by a spectator while still in motion shall also be ruled a home run. A fair fly ball that lands on the top of the wall and is picked up by a spectator after coming to a stop shall be deemed a ground-rule double."

[Tborze]

IMO, the last two posts have NOTHING to do the the OP except for... it does not continue over the fence, but instead, immediately returns to the playing field, it should be adjudged as never leaving the playing field. It would be left in play.  

So it can't be a HR!

The fielder then knocks the ball out of play!

Any physicists out there?  If it hit the top of the wall, it SHOULD go over

So it never hit the TOP of the wall?

 

[beerguy55]

I go back to my original assertion.

A ball that hits a fielder in flight and continues over the wall is a home run.

A ball that hits the TOP of the wall in flight and continues over the wall is a home run.

Therefore:

A ball that hits a fielder, then the top of the wall, then goes over must be a home run  AND

A ball that hits the top of the wall, then the fielder, then goes over must be a home run.

 

I believe the spirit and intent of the rules and the game wants this to be a home run.

Any talk about which direction the ball was actually travelling is just an attempt to make something simple more complicated.   

 

The "ball stopping on top of the wall" stuff brings in a whole other can of worms.  What if the top of the wall is 50 feet wide?  We really going to call a ball that comes to rest on top of that a double?  Letter of rule vs spirit of rule.

[timelydew]

so... are we no closer to knowing if this is a HR?

[timelydew]

On 9/11/2017 at 11:28 AM, beerguy55 said:

I go back to my original assertion.

A ball that hits a fielder in flight and continues over the wall is a home run.

A ball that hits the TOP of the wall in flight and continues over the wall is a home run.

Therefore:

A ball that hits a fielder, then the top of the wall, then goes over must be a home run  AND

A ball that hits the top of the wall, then the fielder, then goes over must be a home run.

 

I believe the spirit and intent of the rules and the game wants this to be a home run.

Any talk about which direction the ball was actually travelling is just an attempt to make something simple more complicated.   

 

The "ball stopping on top of the wall" stuff brings in a whole other can of worms.  What if the top of the wall is 50 feet wide?  We really going to call a ball that comes to rest on top of that a double?  Letter of rule vs spirit of rule.

I have to say I'm inclined to agree. MLB will admit to mistakes on HRs and their silence is deafening here.