Replacing the foam in the Gold or Platinum

[blue32]

On 7/21/2017 at 0:34 PM, JimKirk said:

Good question. We will soon be meeting with their new person in charge of the team gear line that includes umpire gear. Our suggestions we will be emphasizing are harness improvement, a lower profile memory foam padding and longer chest protector options. These will most likely not happen for spring 2018 inventory but we are hopeful for fall 2019 for at least the first 2 suggestions.

Any other suggestions, do not hesitate and will pass them along.

An option to purchase just the lower profile replacement padding to replace the padding in our current protectors would be tremendous.

*the statement above was provided by The Department of Redundancy Department. 

[mbkcoach]

27 minutes ago, JimKirk said:

Good question. We will soon be meeting with their new person in charge of the team gear line that includes umpire gear. Our suggestions we will be emphasizing are harness improvement, a lower profile memory foam padding and longer chest protector options. These will most likely not happen for spring 2018 inventory but we are hopeful for fall 2019 for at least the first 2 suggestions.

Any other suggestions, do not hesitate and will pass them along.

Wow!!! @JimKirk thanks!  Would like the wings on the gold changed to be more like the power or platinum. Most people I believe dislike them. 

[JimKirk]

29 minutes ago, mbkcoach said:

Wow!!! @JimKirk thanks!  Would like the wings on the gold changed to be more like the power or platinum. Most people I believe dislike them. 

Will add the suggestion that we make the wings removable and/or to make them lower profile or without the shell. Something different for sure as not everyone likes the wings and removes. Bigger guys who umpire lower levels tend to be the ones who are good with them. Small frame guys it's almost unnecessary. 

Thanks for the suggestion!

[MadMax]

On 7/20/2017 at 2:24 PM, BrianC14 said:

@MadMax, would 0.5" EVA foam work ?

Yes, but it itself is not a total solution. You need to team it with a "sizing" foam, preferably large-lattice and airy, so it optimizes contact between the wearer's body and the foam jacket. Then, you need to encase it in a wicking material, almost like a netting. Schutt did it right, so look to that for inspiration. I'll give more information later...

14 hours ago, JimKirk said:

Good question. We will soon be meeting with their new person in charge of the team gear line that includes umpire gear. Our suggestions we will be emphasizing are harness improvement, a lower profile memory foam padding and longer chest protector options. These will most likely not happen for spring 2018 inventory but we are hopeful for fall 2019 for at least the first 2 suggestions.

Any other suggestions, do not hesitate and will pass them along.

There's a new person??!! Wow. Makes sense, because it sure seems as though the previous person went MIA, or retired, or was woefully uninspired or unmotivated.

Harness redesign is, and should be, A-Number-1-Top-Priority on the Recommendation List. Leave the arcane T-yoke and center strap harness out to pasture, permanently, and just adopt a Flex-style harness. A great resource is sitting up there, just outside Toronto, in the form of @Razzer – license a design from him.

Simply saying "lower profile memory foam" is coming up short. It needs to be a serious, in-depth, comprehensive look into advanced foams, of which memory foam is a component or a consideration. A lamination, or sandwich, of foam and technical materials is the way to go, not only to provide protection, but – this is critical and totally ignored by Wilson currently – to provide ventilation!!! Get the heat and perspiration off our bodies!!! Open cell (sofa cushion) foam and nylon ain't gonna cut it anymore.

The Platinum, as a design planform is rather good, especially its carapace. Where it fails is the existing harness simply cannot put enough tension on the shoulder arch plates so that they arch over the shoulders, and most users wear it incorrectly. Once you start to train it, and induce a curve into those plates by using a Flex-style harness, it starts to scare some bigger guys off because the neck opening is too small. There is a way to address this without altering the planform, or building a larger size – you change the rivets joining the two flanking shoulder arch plates to the center breastplate into Chicago Screws, which act like rivets, but can be easily removed. Then, you have indexed holes such that you can vary the width of the shoulder arch plates, thus increasing or decreasing the neck opening width without compromising the integrity of the unit or having to build, stock and sell a larger sized unit!

Loose the gimmick billow pad on the Platinum. Useless.

Drop the DaviShield line and the "Common" line. If an entry-level soft shell (the current Guardian) is needed, then continue that. Beyond that, if there needs to be two different models between a "Gold" and a "Platinum" because they satisfy two different planform methodologies (hinged shoulder arch plates vs. one-piece shoulder arch plates), then so be it. Please make them in unilateral sizes, with both able to add abdominal extensions and wings, and both using the same style of Flex-style harness. Make sure, too, to take one of the two and progress it into a for-female version! (Ask @Tksjewelry about this!)

13 hours ago, JimKirk said:

Will add the suggestion that we make the wings removable and/or to make them lower profile or without the shell. Something different for sure as not everyone likes the wings and removes. Bigger guys who umpire lower levels tend to be the ones who are good with them. Small frame guys it's almost unnecessary. 

Thanks for the suggestion!

Bigger guys umpiring lower levels are also the primary source of the request for taller (abdominal) coverage! I completely concur that 11", 12", and even 13" is, at times, too short. Conversely, if hard plastic goes beyond 14" down, it becomes restrictive and confining; more often, these bigger guys are sporting "fat muscles", and the fit becomes compromised because the gut cants the CP out. Besides that, using the current / previous methodology of making one foam jacket (instead of segments) means that you have to make an entirely different foam jacket to fit that size unit. I think it's more advantageous to arrive at one (or two) size(s), and for additional abdomen coverage, allow for an extension – as a separate segment – to be attached. Schutt and Champro (or is it Champion?) do this now to great success.

13 hours ago, blue32 said:

An option to purchase just the lower profile replacement padding to replace the padding in our current protectors would be tremendous.

You/we can hope, but I seriously doubt this would ever happen, let alone be considered. While the two carapace planforms are good (Gold and Platinum), it is against market protocol and practices to invest and endeavour in making retrofit parts. They'd much rather you buy a whole new, cohesive unit. 

[BrianC14]

I will echo the comments about the harness for the Platinum,  as stated by @MadMax.  

I recently purchased a flexible harness from @Razzer, and it is fantastic.   

The concept of the Platinum is there, but that foam has got to go.

Kudos to guys like @MadMax, @Razzer, and @JimKirk for moving things forward.

[JimKirk]

8 hours ago, MadMax said:

Yes, but it itself is not a total solution. You need to team it with a "sizing" foam, preferably large-lattice and airy, so it optimizes contact between the wearer's body and the foam jacket. Then, you need to encase it in a wicking material, almost like a netting. Schutt did it right, so look to that for inspiration. I'll give more information later...

There's a new person??!! Wow. Makes sense, because it sure seems as though the previous person went MIA, or retired, or was woefully uninspired or unmotivated.

Harness redesign is, and should be, A-Number-1-Top-Priority on the Recommendation List. Leave the arcane T-yoke and center strap harness out to pasture, permanently, and just adopt a Flex-style harness. A great resource is sitting up there, just outside Toronto, in the form of @Razzer – license a design from him.

Simply saying "lower profile memory foam" is coming up short. It needs to be a serious, in-depth, comprehensive look into advanced foams, of which memory foam is a component or a consideration. A lamination, or sandwich, of foam and technical materials is the way to go, not only to provide protection, but – this is critical and totally ignored by Wilson currently – to provide ventilation!!! Get the heat and perspiration off our bodies!!! Open cell (sofa cushion) foam and nylon ain't gonna cut it anymore.

The Platinum, as a design planform is rather good, especially its carapace. Where it fails is the existing harness simply cannot put enough tension on the shoulder arch plates so that they arch over the shoulders, and most users wear it incorrectly. Once you start to train it, and induce a curve into those plates by using a Flex-style harness, it starts to scare some bigger guys off because the neck opening is too small. There is a way to address this without altering the planform, or building a larger size – you change the rivets joining the two flanking shoulder arch plates to the center breastplate into Chicago Screws, which act like rivets, but can be easily removed. Then, you have indexed holes such that you can vary the width of the shoulder arch plates, thus increasing or decreasing the neck opening width without compromising the integrity of the unit or having to build, stock and sell a larger sized unit!

Loose the gimmick billow pad on the Platinum. Useless.

Drop the DaviShield line and the "Common" line. If an entry-level soft shell (the current Guardian) is needed, then continue that. Beyond that, if there needs to be two different models between a "Gold" and a "Platinum" because they satisfy two different planform methodologies (hinged shoulder arch plates vs. one-piece shoulder arch plates), then so be it. Please make them in unilateral sizes, with both able to add abdominal extensions and wings, and both using the same style of Flex-style harness. Make sure, too, to take one of the two and progress it into a for-female version! (Ask @Tksjewelry about this!)

Bigger guys umpiring lower levels are also the primary source of the request for taller (abdominal) coverage! I completely concur that 11", 12", and even 13" is, at times, too short. Conversely, if hard plastic goes beyond 14" down, it becomes restrictive and confining; more often, these bigger guys are sporting "fat muscles", and the fit becomes compromised because the gut cants the CP out. Besides that, using the current / previous methodology of making one foam jacket (instead of segments) means that you have to make an entirely different foam jacket to fit that size unit. I think it's more advantageous to arrive at one (or two) size(s), and for additional abdomen coverage, allow for an extension – as a separate segment – to be attached. Schutt and Champro (or is it Champion?) do this now to great success.

You/we can hope, but I seriously doubt this would ever happen, let alone be considered. While the two carapace planforms are good (Gold and Platinum), it is against market protocol and practices to invest and endeavour in making retrofit parts. They'd much rather you buy a whole new, cohesive unit. 

Thanks for alll the ideas. I will share them.

[BrianC14]

On 7/21/2017 at 1:39 PM, JimKirk said:

Will add the suggestion that we make the wings removable and/or to make them lower profile or without the shell. Something different for sure as not everyone likes the wings and removes. Bigger guys who umpire lower levels tend to be the ones who are good with them. Small frame guys it's almost unnecessary. 

Thanks for the suggestion!

The wings on the Gold were the biggest reason I didn't buy it, and opted instead for the Platinum.   But that puffy pillow at the neckline on the Platinum could surely be deleted. 

[wolfe_man]

The pillow in the Platinum is removed fairly easily if anyone wants to do so.  Just saying it's an option, but agree it adds nothing to protection.

[BrianC14]

2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

The pillow in the Platinum is removed fairly easily if anyone wants to do so.  Just saying it's an option, but agree it adds nothing to protection.

Suggestions / method would be appreciated.   I took a look at it a few years ago but couldn't see a clean way to get it removed. 

Thanks 

[MadMax]

51 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

Suggestions / method would be appreciated.   I took a look at it a few years ago but couldn't see a clean way to get it removed. 

Thanks 

It is completely and utterly cosmetic. Useless. Purposeless, in the grand scheme of things. Oh sure, Wilson may have put it there so as to reduce the "CLACK!" when the TG smacks against it, and it might serve to be more comfortable for Mr. West when his second and/or third chin rest against it, but other than that, there's nothing.

See the stitching at the edge of the billow pad? Kill it. Render it. Get a utility knife in there (the hawk beak is best) between the carapace plate and the billow pad itself and destroy that stitch. Once you get it going, it will probably all go with a few good tugs. You'll be left with a track of pinholes in the carapace plate.

Get a Force3, Nike, UA... heck, anybody's sticker, and put it there! You know how much value Wilson puts on that bit of your body as advertising space!

[blue32]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

It is completely and utterly cosmetic. Useless. Purposeless, in the grand scheme of things. Oh sure, Wilson may have put it there so as to reduce the "CLACK!" when the TG smacks against it, and it might serve to be more comfortable for Mr. West when his second and/or third chin rest against it, but other than that, there's nothing.

See the stitching at the edge of the billow pad? Kill it. Render it. Get a utility knife in there (the hawk beak is best) between the carapace plate and the billow pad itself and destroy that stitch. Once you get it going, it will probably all go with a few good tugs. You'll be left with a track of pinholes in the carapace plate.

Get a Force3, Nike, UA... heck, anybody's sticker, and put it there! You know how much value Wilson puts on that bit of your body as advertising space!

Not even for those reasons. JW wears a Gold.

As far as removing the billow, I did it with a plain ole stitch ripper from a sewing kit.

[JSam21]

On 7/22/2017 at 4:26 AM, MadMax said:

Yes, but it itself is not a total solution. You need to team it with a "sizing" foam, preferably large-lattice and airy, so it optimizes contact between the wearer's body and the foam jacket. Then, you need to encase it in a wicking material, almost like a netting. Schutt did it right, so look to that for inspiration. I'll give more information later...

There's a new person??!! Wow. Makes sense, because it sure seems as though the previous person went MIA, or retired, or was woefully uninspired or unmotivated.

Harness redesign is, and should be, A-Number-1-Top-Priority on the Recommendation List. Leave the arcane T-yoke and center strap harness out to pasture, permanently, and just adopt a Flex-style harness. A great resource is sitting up there, just outside Toronto, in the form of @Razzer – license a design from him.

Simply saying "lower profile memory foam" is coming up short. It needs to be a serious, in-depth, comprehensive look into advanced foams, of which memory foam is a component or a consideration. A lamination, or sandwich, of foam and technical materials is the way to go, not only to provide protection, but – this is critical and totally ignored by Wilson currently – to provide ventilation!!! Get the heat and perspiration off our bodies!!! Open cell (sofa cushion) foam and nylon ain't gonna cut it anymore.

The Platinum, as a design planform is rather good, especially its carapace. Where it fails is the existing harness simply cannot put enough tension on the shoulder arch plates so that they arch over the shoulders, and most users wear it incorrectly. Once you start to train it, and induce a curve into those plates by using a Flex-style harness, it starts to scare some bigger guys off because the neck opening is too small. There is a way to address this without altering the planform, or building a larger size – you change the rivets joining the two flanking shoulder arch plates to the center breastplate into Chicago Screws, which act like rivets, but can be easily removed. Then, you have indexed holes such that you can vary the width of the shoulder arch plates, thus increasing or decreasing the neck opening width without compromising the integrity of the unit or having to build, stock and sell a larger sized unit!

Loose the gimmick billow pad on the Platinum. Useless.

Drop the DaviShield line and the "Common" line. If an entry-level soft shell (the current Guardian) is needed, then continue that. Beyond that, if there needs to be two different models between a "Gold" and a "Platinum" because they satisfy two different planform methodologies (hinged shoulder arch plates vs. one-piece shoulder arch plates), then so be it. Please make them in unilateral sizes, with both able to add abdominal extensions and wings, and both using the same style of Flex-style harness. Make sure, too, to take one of the two and progress it into a for-female version! (Ask @Tksjewelry about this!)

Bigger guys umpiring lower levels are also the primary source of the request for taller (abdominal) coverage! I completely concur that 11", 12", and even 13" is, at times, too short. Conversely, if hard plastic goes beyond 14" down, it becomes restrictive and confining; more often, these bigger guys are sporting "fat muscles", and the fit becomes compromised because the gut cants the CP out. Besides that, using the current / previous methodology of making one foam jacket (instead of segments) means that you have to make an entirely different foam jacket to fit that size unit. I think it's more advantageous to arrive at one (or two) size(s), and for additional abdomen coverage, allow for an extension – as a separate segment – to be attached. Schutt and Champro (or is it Champion?) do this now to great success.

You/we can hope, but I seriously doubt this would ever happen, let alone be considered. While the two carapace planforms are good (Gold and Platinum), it is against market protocol and practices to invest and endeavour in making retrofit parts. They'd much rather you buy a whole new, cohesive unit. 

With everything on the athletes' side of the ball being able to be customized. Do you think that they would start moving toward customizing CPs? Different padding options, extensions, harness, etc..

[Stk004]

52 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

With everything on the athletes' side of the ball being able to be customized. Do you think that they would start moving toward customizing CPs? Different padding options, extensions, harness, etc..

One can dream. I doubt the market for umpire equipment is big enough to justify personalization of all of our equipment. I hope I'm wrong, because this is an awesome idea I'd love to see happen. Then again, you can customize anything if you have the dough for it. 

[JSam21]

8 hours ago, Stk004 said:

One can dream. I doubt the market for umpire equipment is big enough to justify personalization of all of our equipment. I hope I'm wrong, because this is an awesome idea I'd love to see happen. Then again, you can customize anything if you have the dough for it. 

I think it Wilson is the only company big enough that could do it. You pick your model, then can upgrade your padding, choose the color of your pad jacket and trim. Then you can pick the type of harness you want. Charge $250-$275 for it...

[MadMax]

Yes, @acpar72, Zorbium is a patented, advanced family of memory foams from Team Wendy. Perhaps @Mr Ump misspoke. Kevlar is not a foam, but a synthetic fiber with a tensile strength-to-weight ratio 5 times greater than steel. It exhibits linear elasticity, while foam exhibits compressive, low-resistence elasticity – two entirely different forces at work.

It is this difference that challenges Force3. Because Kevlar exists as a spun, woven fabric, it lacks structure – it needs to be backed by something of some rigidity to give it shape, or itself be backing to something else. Additionally, Kevlar's fatal flaw is any exposure to UV light, which causes it to decay. As such, it has to be sandwiched within vinyls, nylons or other fabrics that do not allow UV penetration. This often comes at the cost of breathability. All this development work, too, results in increased costs.

I wouldn't besmirch Wilson, and hold them in such contempt, if they either A) charged less for their products, reflective of the peasant-grade materials they use, or B) actually took the premium prices we pay and invested it into progressively improving the design features and materials used of said products. They do neither; oh, and all those products are made overseas.

[Tksjewelry]

Thanks for alll the ideas. I will share them.

I'd be perfectly willing to speak to a rep about the unique common issues I've been speaking to other women umpires about. I, personally, have tried 6 different vests and I've been injured wearing every one of them, including the force.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[mbkcoach]

1 hour ago, Tksjewelry said:

 

I'd be perfectly willing to speak to a rep about the unique common issues I've been speaking to other women umpires about. I, personally, have tried 6 different vests and I've been injured wearing every one of them, including the force.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 

 

Is there not one made for female umpires? Heck they even make female football shoulder pads. This needs to be addressed by some company. We will have a female big league umpire soon I would assume. 

[Tksjewelry]

Is there not one made for female umpires? Heck they even make female football shoulder pads. This needs to be addressed by some company. We will have a female big league umpire soon I would assume. 

Nope, they don't. The umpiring buying community is a small population with women being a tiny percentage of that, so I understand why the don't. Engineering, development, testing, and minimum manufacturing requirements don't make it very cost effective for companies. I personally would rather see a more modular vest that is basically ala carte. You start with a base narrow center plate then add additional pieces to suit the frame of the wearer. Force is on the right path, but their product isn't engineered for women's bodies. Our bumps don't allow the vest to dissipate energy the way it was engineered to work.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[Aging_Arbiter]

I can't wait to see the @Tksjewelry Frankenvest that she comes up with.

[acpar72]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 10:49 PM, MadMax said:

It is completely and utterly cosmetic. Useless. Purposeless, in the grand scheme of things. Oh sure, Wilson may have put it there so as to reduce the "CLACK!" when the TG smacks against it, and it might serve to be more comfortable for Mr. West when his second and/or third chin rest against it, but other than that, there's nothing.

See the stitching at the edge of the billow pad? Kill it. Render it. Get a utility knife in there (the hawk beak is best) between the carapace plate and the billow pad itself and destroy that stitch. Once you get it going, it will probably all go with a few good tugs. You'll be left with a track of pinholes in the carapace plate.

Get a Force3, Nike, UA... heck, anybody's sticker, and put it there! You know how much value Wilson puts on that bit of your body as advertising space!

Actually Wilson designed it to fit under the throat guard of the dyna lite frame and create less of a gap and assist in added protection for those that don't attach a 4 or 6 inch throat guard.

[mbkcoach]

@acpar72 the more I learn and study these protectors that pad seems to be there for maybe two reasons other than the throat guard reason 

 

1. Carlucci had a pad there and Joe west was a big Carlucci fan. 

 

2. These early protectors were made from football shoulder pad parts and the pad looks as though it served a purpose of connecting the two plates in the front so no gap was left. If you look at the front of hunter w's cp. 

 

really i don't know what I'm talking about just two ideas for why the platinum has it. Joe west in the early 90s was wearing a power with a pad on it like the platinum has now. 

Imagine making a CP out of the shoulder pads I posted.  a pad would be needed in that area to connect the two sides of the shoulder pads  

 

 

[GerryB]

Hunter's is a Donzis/Easton CP, hot item just before the WV (90s or so).

They had the throat pad, but I think the gap protection is an add on.

The pads were a FB pad take off as Donzis was redesigning FB pads back then.

Donzis obituary, 2012

[Mister B]

On 7/23/2017 at 7:44 AM, Stk004 said:

One can dream. I doubt the market for umpire equipment is big enough to justify personalization of all of our equipment. I hope I'm wrong, because this is an awesome idea I'd love to see happen. Then again, you can customize anything if you have the dough for it. 

Making the flex harness standard would actually go a long way here. I just added an All-Star harness to my V-Sport and the fit is amazing. I had spent months trying to get the original harness to fit and never could. I had to add some polyprop webbing to the top straps, but it's now way more comfortable and form-fitting. 

I was going to use Raz's harness, but the AS was a really good deal. 

Not CP related, but I got my son a Schutt batting helmet. He loves it. Not as hot as his old one. The Schutt Air Max stuff looks good and is making it's way into Catcher's helmets.