Should I have got involved?

[FleasOf1000Camels]

12u under OBR.  I am in 'C' with runners at 1st and 2nd.

Batter squares to bunt, pitch is WAY inside, pitch hits batter in the stomach.  Partner calls TIME and tells batter to take first.  All sounds fine, EXCEPT the batter CLEARLY offered at the pitch.

DC politely approached plate and conversation goes like this:

DC: Sir, didn't he offer at the pitch?

PU: Coach, the batter was hit by the pitch.

DC: Yes, I know that, but didn't he offer at the pitch?

PU: No.

DC: Can you check with your partner?

PU: No, that's not an appealable call.

I know the initial call is his, and I'm only to get involved if HE asks for help...but when he is mistaken on a point of rule (as opposed to judgment) should I have done anything?  I had been trying throughout the entire time to quietly get his attention, to let him know I had info he ought to know.  The coach walked back to the dugout scratching his head.

 

[gnhbua93]

Why you were in C and not in B?

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[Gfoley4]

Did he actually attempt to bunt the ball? Or simply still have the bat out in front of home plate and he gets hit? If your partner said that he didn't offer at the pitch and it hit him, I don't see how it would be a rules issue.

[beerguy55]

5 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

Did he actually attempt to bunt the ball? Or simply still have the bat out in front of home plate and he gets hit? If your partner said that he didn't offer at the pitch and it hit him, I don't see how it would be a rules issue.

It's a rules issue when the PU says it's not appealable, that he can't talk his partner, and that he can't change the call.

[noumpere]

21 minutes ago, gnhbua93 said:

Why you were in C and not in B?

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Yes -- that's the main issue.

 

As has been discussed 100 times, some mechanics have the BU in C here, and some in B.  Unless you're a big enough dog to do what you want, work what they tell you.

 

And, on the OP, I would not get involved, but I would ask the PU about it after the game.

[Mister B]

It's a judgement call, PU felt that he didn't offer. He doesn't need to talk to his partner. 

If the BU has an issue with it, resolve it in the Post-Game meeting. 

During our regular season, we had quite a few umpires who were calling strikes if the batter did not pull back the bat on a bunt attempt. The bunt stance is not an offer. 

[beerguy55]

21 minutes ago, Mister B said:

It's a judgement call, PU felt that he didn't offer. He doesn't need to talk to his partner. 

If the BU has an issue with it, resolve it in the Post-Game meeting. 

During our regular season, we had quite a few umpires who were calling strikes if the batter did not pull back the bat on a bunt attempt. The bunt stance is not an offer. 

No, he doesn't need to talk to his partner - he also doesn't need to lie to the coach about not being able to.   It's one thing to tell the coach "no, I don't need help, I saw everything perfectly fine"; it's another to say "no, I can't, the call can't be reversed".

[Mister B]

Tomayto, tomahto

[KenBAZ]

In OBR checked swings are not only appealable but an appeal is mandatory if requested. If the F2 or coach say check, you check. Not sure how I would handle it if I was BU but I'm pretty sure my partner and I would have a conversation about it prior to getting a protest filed against us.

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[VolUmp]

1 hour ago, KenBAZ said:

In OBR checked swings are not only appealable but an appeal is mandatory if requested.

And they're technically called half-swings when appealed ... "checking" the swing means he didn't make an attempt.

The only two exceptions are:

A)  If you feel that the Defense is simply arguing balls and strikes under the guise of appealing a half-swing 

— or —

B)  In 2-man, with no one on, when a lefty makes a half-swing, and the PU calls it a checked swing (ball), and the defense asks for an appeal to the umpire standing in position A.  (Around these parts, we won't grant it. And yes – I realize this is not discussed in the OBR book).

So … regarding the OP, I think I'd lay low unless the coach insisted on an appeal and threatened a protest if not granted one. 

Now ... in reality, I doubt any coach would ever protest the game over this, because of the looming embarrassment of getting all the way through the protest, winning the protest, forcing the PU to ask his partner, "Did he go?" only to see the BU signal no swing.

And that's exactly how it would go down, or we may have an inter-fraternal murder after the game. 

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Quote

 

OK, guys.  I made a typo on the OP...runners were on 1st and 2nd...that's why I was in C.  NOW, can we get off the topic of positioning and back to the intended question?

I could add that the batter was a chubby kid, and I can certainly understand how my partner could have been blocked out.    There was absolutely NO question that he offered at the pitch.  The ONLY question MIGHT be was his offer an attempt to put the ball in play, or just to defend himself...and I don't believe that makes any difference...he offered at the pitch.  If partner had asked, I would most certainly have said YES HE DID.

FED gives the PU right to NOT ask for help, OBR requires PU to get help if asked (8.02c).  When partner told DC it was NOT appealable, that's when I considered involving myself...and that's the question being asked. 

[VolUmp]

2 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

that's when I considered involving myself...and that's the question being asked. 

What am I ... chopped liver? (Re-quoting my answer from above...)

So … regarding the OP, I think I'd lay low unless the coach insisted on an appeal and threatened a protest if not granted one. 

(new) AND THEN INVOLVE MYSELF IF IT GOT THAT FAR ...

[ElkOil]

4 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

When partner told DC it was NOT appealable, that's when I considered involving myself...and that's the question being asked. 

It would have been one thing if the two of you were having a conversation with the coach and he asked your partner who gave the wrong answer. But in a case like what you describe, I don't think getting involved would be warranted. Unfortunately, many umpires carry around a noggin full of dubious information. I once had a partner tell a coach "the hands are part of the bat." If you talk between innings, you could mention it to him then. After the game, certainly. But I wouldn't make a big whoop out of it during the game. 

[umpstu]

5 hours ago, VolUmp said:

And they're technically called half-swings when appealed ... "checking" the swing means he didn't make an attempt.

The only two exceptions are:

A)  If you feel that the Defense is simply arguing balls and strikes under the guise of appealing a half-swing 

— or —

B)  In 2-man, with no one on, when a lefty makes a half-swing, and the PU calls it a checked swing (ball), and the defense asks for an appeal to the umpire standing in position A.  (Around these parts, we won't grant it. And yes – I realize this is not discussed in the OBR book).

So … regarding the OP, I think I'd lay low unless the coach insisted on an appeal and threatened a protest if not granted one. 

Now ... in reality, I doubt any coach would ever protest the game over this, because of the looming embarrassment of getting all the way through the protest, winning the protest, forcing the PU to ask his partner, "Did he go?" only to see the BU signal no swing.

And that's exactly how it would go down, or we may have an inter-fraternal murder after the game. 

You won't ask your partner in the A position if a lefty went on a swing?

[VolUmp]

1 hour ago, umpstu said:

You won't ask your partner in the A position if a lefty went on a swing?

Did I stutter?

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, umpstu said:

You won't ask your partner in the A position if a lefty went on a swing?

Apparently not -- even though it's the proper thing to do.  I get the whole "when in Rome" thing, but this seems contrary to the written instructions AND to anything I'v ebeen taught in any clinic anywhere (not that it comes up much in the clinics, I agree).

[maineump]

5 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Did I stutter?

In some rule sets we MUST ask if asked to check. What is the big deal, your partner either saw a swing or didn't - just ask. It doesn't make you less of a plate umpire.

[BrianC14]

3 hours ago, maineump said:

In some rule sets we MUST ask if asked to check. What is the big deal, your partner either saw a swing or didn't - just ask. It doesn't make you less of a plate umpire.

I make it a point to pre-game with guys that I haven't worked with:   "If I come to you on a checked swing appeal, give me what you've got.  I couldn't care less about being "overruled"... and what umpire doesn't like strikes?  And besides, my ego fits in my 7 1/4 cap."

 

[BrianC14]

@FleasOf1000Camels - Unfortunately, this doesn't appear to be a situation where you would want to insert yourself.  As an aside, did you post-game this with your partner?

[jkumpire]

Fleas,

I hope the camel population doesn't shrink anytime soon...

I had the same thing happen in a college/adult summer league game recently.  The game was straight OBR, but my partner works only FED, and he didn't know that it was OBR before the game started. I was in A, it was a LH batter and my PU missed the swing, it was clear to everyone in the park, including the batter that he offered at it. The PU refused to check with me when F2 asked, when the manager came out and asked, even when I tipped my hat (pregamed signal for 'I have extra information you need'). It was real hard not to walk in and get involved in the discussion, but I did it. Thankfully after the batter walked he was erased on a double play. because if he scores and there is a protest I would hate to be on the losing side of it and pay a fine (and before you ask, I only found out after the game he did not know it was an OBR rules game).

He is a guy that does not usually ask in FED if the BU is in A with a LH batter, or in B/C with runners on, another issue entirely, but I digress. It is hard to do, but there are times when you just have to stay out of the way and let your partner take his medicine.

[scrounge]

There are times when you should interject yourself uninvited, but IMO only in a crew save situation. Something like the game winning run getting called out at home, but you see the ball on the ground. The "save us from being on youtube or on Deadspin" situations. This doesn't rise to that level. Just let it go, let  him know in postgame - his reaction will tell you all you need to know about him.

[Stk004]

For what it's work @jkumpire , once the next pitch was thrown to your batter the opportunity for a protest was gone. They must protest right then and there when it happens. 

[maineump]

47 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

For what it's work @jkumpire , once the next pitch was thrown to your batter the opportunity for a protest was gone. They must protest right then and there when it happens. 

Protest a strike/ball call? Isn't another name for that arguing balls/strikes?

[Stk004]

22 minutes ago, maineump said:

Protest a strike/ball call? Isn't another name for that arguing balls/strikes?

I had an interesting discussion with another member about this. The protest would be over the fact that the PU didn't ask check down to his partner when he's required, by rule, to do so. This scenario is a judgment call, then a (protestable) rules application, which leads to another judgment call. 

[maineump]

31 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

I had an interesting discussion with another member about this. The protest would be over the fact that the PU didn't ask check down to his partner when he's required, by rule, to do so. This scenario is a judgment call, then a (protestable) rules application, which leads to another judgment call. 

Yeah - I understand that part of it. Just solve the problem, ASK YOUR PARTNER  .