Jump to content

Remove these ads by becoming a Premium Member
VolUmp

Flamingo

Recommended Posts

13 year old tournament playing by FED rules.

Pitcher, while both in the wind up and in the set, is able to lift his free leg high and come to a complete stop in what we call the "Flamingo" pose.

Umpire calls time, meets on the mound with the pitcher and his coach in a "free visit," to clarify that whether he's in the set or the wind up, he must be delivering the ball without any hesitation and in a continuous motion ... and that this so called, "flamingo pose" violates this rule.

 

 Umpire expresses that this violation will result in a balk with men on base, and a ball with no men on base.

"Coach immediately shakes his head in disgust and says, "I've never heard of that in my entire life."

What are the correct rulings and citations in FED regarding this situation? Thank you 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remove these ads by becoming a Premium Member

Most will say it's a balk with runners on.  There is some authority that says it's a commitment to pitch, so any delay is just benefiting the runners, so let it go (this would especially be true from the windup in Fed, since a pick-off is not allowed).  If F1 stops and then goes to a base, call the balk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather than asking some one else for the citations, go dig them out on your own! One of the best ways to really learn is to be an active participant in the process. By accessing the particular section of the rule sets you work under, you may even learn more than this particular rule.

OBR

FED

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure something was moving.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it a possibility that the kid is simply making sure he's found his balance point? I'm teaching my 10 year old son this right now. He comes to a complete stop with this left leg in the air to make sure he's balanced before he throws. 

My personal opinion is unless the kid is falling off the mound, calling balks in 13 year old baseball is simply showing off your ability to read the rule book. 

I would let it go. What advantage is being gained?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, calling balks in 13-year old baseball prevents the HS coach from having to fix bad mechanics from a pitcher that's been doing it wrong for his whole life. 

The advantage is that you're freezing the runner. He doesn't know if you're going to the plate or the pick-off. Think of it as a windup that suddenly ends up in a pick-off. 

".....without hesitation or interruption" is there for a reason. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, maven said:

I'm pretty sure something was moving.

2 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

Rather than asking some one else for the citations, go dig them out on your own! One of the best ways to really learn is to be an active participant in the process. By accessing the particular section of the rule sets you work under, you may even learn more than this particular rule.

OBR

FED

Jesus H Christ.

I'm painting a picture without any loopholes, and variables, any unknowns, and you guys won't answer the questions.

Kevin, I have already looked up the Rules, Casebook Cites, and Ump Manual mentions.  This means they either exist or they don't. I want to see how "common" common knowledge is.

Maven, that's just a copout. I said complete stop ... there was nothing ambiguous about that, and I'm not asking, "how do I bail myself out if confronted by a coach on this item."

 

Legal or not?

MAN ON:        YES  NO

NO ONE ON:  YES  NO

 

Penalty or not?

MAN ON:        Balk?

NO ONE ON:  Nothing? Don't do that? Ball?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, jjb said:

Sorry, calling balks in 13-year old baseball prevents the HS coach from having to fix bad mechanics from a pitcher that's been doing it wrong for his whole life. 

The advantage is that you're freezing the runner. He doesn't know if you're going to the plate or the pick-off. Think of it as a windup that suddenly ends up in a pick-off. 

".....without hesitation or interruption" is there for a reason. 

jjb, thank you, Sir for answering and employing some common sense and forethought.  

Now ... what about the windup?  Still must be one continuous motion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

jjb, thank you, Sir for answering and employing some common sense and forethought.  

Now ... what about the windup?  Still must be one continuous motion. 

If you are asking about common sense NCAA has it in their rules:

"A.R. 2 A pitcher may pause during his delivery from the windup position without penalty� "

You should take some guidance from them in other codes unless they require you not to.

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

 

Maven, that's just a copout. I said complete stop ... there was nothing ambiguous about that, and I'm not asking, "how do I bail myself out if confronted by a coach on this item."

 

Translation of Maven.s comment:  Don't call it with no one on. It doesn't get called with no one on in NCAA or the pros because it doesn't mean squat. And it doesn't mean squat here either.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rich Ives said:

Translation of Maven.s comment:  Don't call it with no one on. It doesn't get called with no one on in NCAA or the pros because it doesn't mean squat. And it doesn't mean squat here either.

That's right.

And with runners on, treat as in noumpere's post: if he pitches, fine—his pause gives the runner an advantage. If he picks, balk it.

We have to enforce the balk rule as an advantage/disadvantage rule, for the sake of game management and pace of game. That means attending to the level: if you balk every little twitch below HS varsity, your games are going to be uncomfortable and long. Are such twitches balks by rule? Sure: start/stop. That doesn't entail that we should call it that way. No advantage = no balk.

OBR has a useful provision in the balk rule (one that is unfortunately misinterpreted). It says that "when in doubt" about the legality of a move, the umpire should judge the intent of F1. When F1 is intentionally trying to deceive the runner—say, by freezing during delivery and then picking—we should rule it a balk. This provision applies only to borderline moves: obvious balks still need be called, regardless of intent (this provision does not provide criteria for balks, but only a philosophy for ruling on borderline moves).

For the OP: if your question is, given a balk call, what rule provides the penalty, the answer is the balk rule. Most of the posts here push back against taking a balk call as given. That's good guidance, from good umpires (and a knowledgeable coach). As always, you're free to take it or leave it, but I recommend not arguing with good advice: people are just trying to help you.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

99.99% of the time from the windup, even under OBR / NCAA, the pitcher has made some other movement (a rocker step, lifting the hands over the heat, etc) that commits him to the plate.  If he throws to a base, it's a balk, whether or not he comes to this flamingo stop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/4/2017 at 10:40 AM, maven said:

And with runners on, treat as in noumpere's post: if he pitches, fine—his pause gives the runner an advantage. If he picks, balk it.

The only way you can say this gives the runners an advantage is if the runners are savvy enough to know the umpires in that particular game, and that those particular umpires will call it a balk if he picked someone off. Otherwise, it is clearly a disadvantage to the runners. I agree with most everything else I've received back in input. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/4/2017 at 8:40 AM, maven said:

And with runners on, treat as in noumpere's post: if he pitches, fine—his pause gives the runner an advantage. If he picks, balk it.

What explanation do you give to the coach when he points out that his pitcher has been doing it all game without it being a balk, and asks why he's suddenly getting called for it? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/4/2017 at 6:00 AM, maven said:

I'm pretty sure something was moving.

Heart was beating.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/4/2017 at 5:31 AM, VolUmp said:

13 year old tournament playing by FED rules.

Pitcher, while both in the wind up and in the set, is able to lift his free leg high and come to a complete stop in what we call the "Flamingo" pose.

Umpire calls time, meets on the mound with the pitcher and his coach in a "free visit," to clarify that whether he's in the set or the wind up, he must be delivering the ball without any hesitation and in a continuous motion ... and that this so called, "flamingo pose" violates this rule.

 

 Umpire expresses that this violation will result in a balk with men on base, and a ball with no men on base.

"Coach immediately shakes his head in disgust and says, "I've never heard of that in my entire life."

What are the correct rulings and citations in FED regarding this situation? Thank you 

Is he a Japanese pitcher?  They incorporate this into their motions quite a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, VolUmp said:

The only way you can say this gives the runners an advantage is if the runners are savvy enough to know the umpires in that particular game, and that those particular umpires will call it a balk if he picked someone off. Otherwise, it is clearly a disadvantage to the runners. I agree with most everything else I've received back in input. 

I'm trying to picture this.  Has he started his motion to come home during the windup and then stops at the top of his windup?  If so, to me it seems as if he can only go home with a pitch. So, if he were to try a pick off I'd think it was a balk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, umpstu said:

Has he started his motion to come home during the windup and then stops at the top of his windup?

Yes.  And coaching the "balance point" was one of the comments made.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, umpstu said:

I'm trying to picture this.  Has he started his motion to come home during the windup and then stops at the top of his windup?  If so, to me it seems as if he can only go home with a pitch. So, if he were to try a pick off I'd think it was a balk.

What I'm assuming is the pitcher is pausing to ensure he's balanced. My 10 yr. old son is learning to pitch and has been taught (he's right handed) from the stretch to lift his left leg, bring his arms straight out (left arm pointing home, right arm pointing toward 2nd) and balance himself before striding toward the plate. So when he's actually pitching in a game, he hesitates during his motion to make sure he's balanced.

While it may technically be a balk, young pitchers are trying to find their balance point. They aren't deceiving anyone. They aren't gaining any advantage and the only person they are putting at a disadvantage is themselves, because when the offensive coach sees this he should be smart enough to tell his runners to go on first movement and either have an easy stolen base or cause the pitcher to actually balk (no 13yr old is going to be smart enough to spin and throw directly to 2nd).

10 year olds are learning how to pitch, period. 13 year olds are learning how to pitch from 60'6". Personally, I would let it go, but I also don't work 13 yr. old baseball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MidAmUmp said:

What I'm assuming is the pitcher is pausing to ensure he's balanced. My 10 yr. old son is learning to pitch and has been taught (he's right handed) from the stretch to lift his left leg, bring his arms straight out (left arm pointing home, right arm pointing toward 2nd) and balance himself before striding toward the plate. So when he's actually pitching in a game, he hesitates during his motion to make sure he's balanced.

While it may technically be a balk, young pitchers are trying to find their balance point. They aren't deceiving anyone. They aren't gaining any advantage and the only person they are putting at a disadvantage is themselves, because when the offensive coach sees this he should be smart enough to tell his runners to go on first movement and either have an easy stolen base or cause the pitcher to actually balk (no 13yr old is going to be smart enough to spin and throw directly to 2nd).

10 year olds are learning how to pitch, period. 13 year olds are learning how to pitch from 60'6". Personally, I would let it go, but I also don't work 13 yr. old baseball.

But you do work NCAA baseball. Are you saying it is a technical balk in FED and OBR? Which it is but leeway is given freely in OBR as it should because of reasons mentioned in other posts in this thread. FED is a special case and you have to ignore a caseplay or interp to let this go. I ignore such and use @maven and others rationales. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Stk004 said:

What explanation do you give to the coach when he points out that his pitcher has been doing it all game without it being a balk, and asks why he's suddenly getting called for it? 

I don't see anyone here who said, "Let him do it all game and then balk it."  I have seen those who said, "Let him do something (i.e., pitch) all game, and then balk it *if he does something different* (i.e., pick off)."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, noumpere said:

I don't see anyone here who said, "Let him do it all game and then balk it."  I have seen those who said, "Let him do something (i.e., pitch) all game, and then balk it *if he does something different* (i.e., pick off)."

I know. Perhaps my question was worded poorly. I want to know what you tell a coach when he asks why his pitcher can't pickoff when he hasn't committed to home yet. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

I know. Perhaps my question was worded poorly. I want to know what you tell a coach when he asks why his pitcher can't pickoff when he hasn't committed to home yet. 

I had him committing to home.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Jimurray said:

But you do work NCAA baseball. Are you saying it is a technical balk in FED and OBR? Which it is but leeway is given freely in OBR as it should because of reasons mentioned in other posts in this thread. FED is a special case and you have to ignore a caseplay or interp to let this go. I ignore such and use @maven and others rationales. 

What I'm saying is use common sense. If the kid is cheating, balk him. If the kid can't pitch and chew gum at the same time, use some common sense. Do we let some shoulder movement go when a kid is trying to figure out how to pitch and he's turning his shoulder to 1st once he's come set? We should be answering yes. If we're not, we're nothing but a rule enforcing booger picker, and all we're doing is demonstrating that we have the ability to read.

If a coach wants to argue why you're not calling it a balk, tell him why. He should be smart enough to take advantage of the situation and steal on first movement. As I stated earlier, that kid isn't going to spin and throw to 2nd base...so he's either going to pitch w/ no chance of the catcher having a play on the runner -OR- he's going to stop his delivery and then he's truly balked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, MidAmUmp said:

If a coach wants to argue why you're not calling it a balk, tell him why. He should be smart enough to take advantage of the situation and steal on first movement. As I stated earlier, that kid isn't going to spin and throw to 2nd base...so he's either going to pitch w/ no chance of the catcher having a play on the runner -OR- he's going to stop his delivery and then he's truly balked.

maybe he's been taught an inside move?  

 

I realize not likely - but with a good coach possible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×