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kstrunk

Dan McDonnell Ejection

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Whatever he said, it had to be pretty bad to get tossed in that situation, UNLESS... I'm off the mark in thinking that as officials we should understand the overall situation and sometimes try a bit harder to keep a guy in a game. 

Not at all saying the umpire was wrong to eject because I don't know what was said, but using the example as an opportunity to inquire - do we work harder in those situations to keep a guy in the game (elimination game, close game, etc...)? 

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Disclaimer:  the following quote is from a Louisville blog, so obviously it will be one sided.  The coach came out of the dugout to complain about a Louisville batter getting dumped after the batter spiked his bat on a called third strike. 

"The Louisville coach and Shields went at it for several minutes before the other umpires joined in, using their authority and bulk to intimidate the Louisville coach. No force was used, but it had the clear appearance of a threat."

Note that the coach complained for "several minutes".  The blog goes on to claim (whine?) that the coach returned to the dugout but then turned around and exploded back onto the field even angrier than before,  at which point he gets run.  The blog claims that the coach "was baited" and yet admits being unaware of what might have been said. 

I disagree with the notion that officials should "work harder" to keep people in games.  It isn't in the job description that I am aware of, and what does that even mean?   That officials take more abuse ? 

In this particular case, Louisville was facing elimination, so would it be unreasonable to consider that maybe the coach WANTED to get run to fire up his squad? 

Bottom line for me is that it's the official's job to get calls right.   It's the coach and player's job to keep themselves in the game. 

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There is always some context involved in any confrontation, but if it's such a critical situation, the coach should work harder to stay in the game. This is not all on the umpire.

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The suggestion that umpires "work harder" to do anything is objectionable on its face, as it is vague. Harder than what?

It's generally doubletalk motivated by fanboy attitudes toward some call or action of an umpire and utterly unsubstantiated by data.

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BrianC14, I think your blog quote applied to a situation in 2010, allegedly the first ejection in McDonnell's career.  I found a video of it here.  It's pretty ugly optics (and I'm not just talking about the fact that I think the video was recorded in crayon).

In this clip of last night's CWS game, immediately before McDonnell was ejected, you can read the umpire's lips as he tells him "No more, Dan."  Then McDonnell decided he needed to test him with a parting shot. The umpire worked hard for the coach, but the line has to be somewhere.  From my viewing of that clip , I think it was drawn clearly and even without much emotion, and McDonnell knowingly walked across it.  Sometimes a guy has to go.

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http://www.courier-journal.com/videos/sports/college/louisville/2017/06/23/u-l-coach-dan-mcdonnell-says-he-lost-his-cool-college-world-series/103128636/

Clearly states that he "doesn't blame the umpire"  he was fighting for his player and how important that base was.

 

 

 

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he was seen many times during the CWS whining about things on the field .......... u2 clearly said to him "stop pointing Don" ....and he kept up with his antics

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It's been said many times, in different ways: umpires don't eject coaches, we simply show them where the team bus is parked.

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Hopefully the NCAA doesn't give the umpire the reprimand that he didn't say "this is your official warning, if you continue to argue you will be ejected."  Perhaps he did prior, just can't quite tell from the video.  From this end it seems like a bit of a quick ejection.

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To me "try and keep them in the game" is similiar to after a coach is EJ'd saying "he got his money's worth", it's more nonsense falling out of their mouth. I can't control a coaches words or actions, all I can control is mine. I want to use the tools at my disposal (verbal, non-verbal, shive) to try and de-esclate the situation. If I can't and he crosses the line then he's gotta go. That's what "keeping them in the game" means to me, not take more abuse. You could tell be the way he came on the field he wanted to get ran.

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5 hours ago, CJK said:

BrianC14, I think your blog quote applied to a situation in 2010, allegedly the first ejection in McDonnell's career.  I found a video of it here.  It's pretty ugly optics (and I'm not just talking about the fact that I think the video was recorded in crayon).

In this clip of last night's CWS game, immediately before McDonnell was ejected, you can read the umpire's lips as he tells him "No more, Dan."  Then McDonnell decided he needed to test him with a parting shot. The umpire worked hard for the coach, but the line has to be somewhere.  From my viewing of that clip , I think it was drawn clearly and even without much emotion, and McDonnell knowingly walked across it.  Sometimes a guy has to go.

:o   Holy moly you have a good memory!  I completely missed the date of the blog publication; it was in 2010 !   D'Oh !    Thanks for the correction.  

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5 hours ago, zoops said:

Hopefully the NCAA doesn't give the umpire the reprimand that he didn't say "this is your official warning, if you continue to argue you will be ejected."  Perhaps he did prior, just can't quite tell from the video.  From this end it seems like a bit of a quick ejection.

The official warning is great and all but if someone crosses the line there are still automatics. I imagine he said something that was deemed automatic as he walked away. 

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3 hours ago, stkjock said:

he seemed to say "that's enough Dan"

The NCAA does not accept that...I have had partners that have been scolded for ejecting after using that as their warning.  

 

12 minutes ago, zm1283 said:

The official warning is great and all but if someone crosses the line there are still automatics. I imagine he said something that was deemed automatic as he walked away. 

This crossed my mind as well.  We'll probably never know I guess.  

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Not a lip reader by any means, but this is what I thought was said.  Video also doesn't show whole arguement  

 

As the arguement started HC seemed to point/gesture to video board and said something along the lines of everyone could tell he was safe.  Winter seemed to say something to instruct to not point towards videoboard. 

 

Now to the sbnation link I thought Winters said "this is your warning, no more Dan" just as that clip started.  Then some parting shot. 

 

Thats my take. It'll probably be a video with the audio included next season. 

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19 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

:o   Holy moly you have a good memory!  I completely missed the date of the blog publication; it was in 2010 !   D'Oh !    Thanks for the correction.  

Cripes BrianC14, you had the 8th post about that incident back in 2010 on page 28 right now, under 'umpire news from around the web'. He, McDonnell, got 3 days for that one in the Big East tournament and missed the start of the Regionals. And I am sure you knew that all 4 umpires working that ejection game in the Big East Tournament in 2010, had worked the Regionals (Shields, Bennett, Collins, Mele), with Mele and Collins having worked a CWS within their careers, and Mele going on to become a MLB observer in New York at one time.

And recently, McDonnell has gone on to sign a $1,000,000 per year contract ($325,000 per year raise) with Louisville in June 2016, which they did very quickly after Augie Garrido retired so that Texas did not steal him. And along with that 1 million this year, he just raked in a retention bonus of $150,000 this year just for staying, and will get another one in 2020, etc. etc. He had to go do something if he did not like a call or situation or just whining all the time in general, to make sure it looks like he is earning his keep. Articles do not say if he gets bonuses for post season play like the little angel with a halo, the coach at Maryland's contract is laced with.

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13 hours ago, kstrunk said:

Whatever he said, it had to be pretty bad to get tossed in that situation, UNLESS... I'm off the mark in thinking that as officials we should understand the overall situation and sometimes try a bit harder to keep a guy in a game. 

Not at all saying the umpire was wrong to eject because I don't know what was said, but using the example as an opportunity to inquire - do we work harder in those situations to keep a guy in the game (elimination game, close game, etc...)? 

No you don't work harder. You shouldn't have to work harder, the coach should know what he can and can't say.  Rules don't change from the regular season to the CWS.

Like the balk in that Texas high school championship game.  Now, I don't see a balk there, but it was discouraging to see all the posts from fellow umpires saying that unless it's an obvious balk that you shouldn't call a balk with a runner on third in a championship game. ???????????????????  Is it not a balk anymore.  How about the pitcher shouldn't balk with a runner on third in a championship game.  That pretty much solves the problem.

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I can definitely see where more is being done to keep guys in the game. As in what we just saw after the strike 3 call in the LSU-OSU game. After the 3rd strike, the batter turned around and yelled some expletives at the umpire and the head coach also left his position to argue balls and strikes after being given the stop sign to not come out. Do I agree? I'm not good enough to decide that but it is what it is. There's no denying there's more rope being given in the CWS. 

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You can rest assure the NCAA knows exactly what was said by coach and umpire. All umpires are mic'd up. I would not be surprised this doesn't get covered at the next NCAA meeting during the handling situations session.

I don't know if this CWS umpire issued a formal warning or not, but in my discussions with conference coordinators, formal warnings, usually accompanied with verbal and visual indication of issued warning, are always 100% better than informal ones.  It removes all doubt.  I'm not saying that the coach here did or didn't do or say anything here that called for ejection. But visually you have a coach that "appears to be walking away" from the umpire, then gets run. The optics of these types of ejections don't favor the umpire especially if no formal warning had been issued. 

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6 hours ago, Fittske24 said:

You can rest assure the NCAA knows exactly what was said by coach and umpire. All umpires are mic'd up. I would not be surprised this doesn't get covered at the next NCAA meeting during the handling situations session.

I don't know if this CWS umpire issued a formal warning or not, but in my discussions with conference coordinators, formal warnings, usually accompanied with verbal and visual indication of issued warning, are always 100% better than informal ones.  It removes all doubt.  I'm not saying that the coach here did or didn't do or say anything here that called for ejection. But visually you have a coach that "appears to be walking away" from the umpire, then gets run. The optics of these types of ejections don't favor the umpire especially if no formal warning had been issued. 

So, if a walking away coach said something ejectable, would the quiet ejection technique work? "You're ejected" with no signal. If he turns around give the signal. If he doesn't turn around he knows he has to go.

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1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

So, if a walking away coach said something ejectable, would the quiet ejection technique work? "You're ejected" with no signal. If he turns around give the signal. If he doesn't turn around he knows he has to go.

Maybe on a recreational field or high school field. But on a D1 field especially at the CWS, that technique won't fly.

 

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On 6/25/2017 at 11:03 AM, Fittske24 said:

You can rest assure the NCAA knows exactly what was said by coach and umpire. All umpires are mic'd up. I would not be surprised this doesn't get covered at the next NCAA meeting during the handling situations session.

I don't know if this CWS umpire issued a formal warning or not, but in my discussions with conference coordinators, formal warnings, usually accompanied with verbal and visual indication of issued warning, are always 100% better than informal ones.  It removes all doubt.  I'm not saying that the coach here did or didn't do or say anything here that called for ejection. But visually you have a coach that "appears to be walking away" from the umpire, then gets run. The optics of these types of ejections don't favor the umpire especially if no formal warning had been issued. 

Since they're mic'd up then a warning probably wasn't warranted.  Coach knew what he did would get him ejected.  Didn't argue afterwards.

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