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Jimurray

No outs Walk off walk

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Part of this happened in an actual game that engendered some "what if" which I will add.

Bases loaded, B10, no outs. Ball four. Batter celebrates by running toward his R3 who scores. Visitors throw to 1B and appeal the lack of advance by the batter. Umps left the field saying yes the batter was out but it didn't matter. Which is correct. 

The "what if:"  But video shows R2 not advancing also and does not show what R1 did so lets say both started celebrating without advancing and the visitors noticed after throwing to 1B and appealed both other runners before the umps left the field. I would rule the order doesn't matter as all three were force/1B appeals and no run scores and we go into the 11th and I make the newspapers. 

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7 minutes ago, scrounge said:

Didn't they remove the force by getting the out at 1st?

no runs can score on a play where the batter/runner was retired before first though. I don't think the order of the outs would matter.

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1 minute ago, Gfoley4 said:

no runs can score on a play where the batter/runner was retired before first though. I don't think the order of the outs would matter.

Only when that's the thrid out

 

if the first out is at first, R3 can score, in the OP there are no out.  

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Just now, stkjock said:

Only when that's the thrid out

 

if the first out is at first, R3 can score, in the OP there are no out.  

well yes, I was talking about the "what if" which I assume @scrounge was talking about as well

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1 hour ago, scrounge said:

Didn't they remove the force by getting the out at 1st?

Did they, that is the question. But if they did, is R3 still forced to HP or awarded HP? 

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I am chuckling at the idea that the umpires have left the field as players are scoring, not advancing, might be advancing, and the ball is being thrown from base to base.   But the umpires have left the field.   What, are they missing happy hour at Chili's? 

So, WAS this game in Georgia?   And more importantly,  was it a night game? 

 

"That's the night that the lights went out in Georgia. ..."

 

And since this question is posed in the high school section, who cares what a video shows or doesn't show? 

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2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Did they, that is the question. But if they did, is R3 still forced to HP or awarded HP? 

Yes... the order makes a difference.

R3 cannot score after 3 force outs are recorded.  

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Got to get them in order.  If he goes to 1st first the run scores, because it then becomes a time play on the other two runners. I guess if some how they could appeal the other two base before R2 reaches home then the run doesn't score. The proper order would be to appeal 3rd, 2nd, then 1st. no run would score because R1 and R2 were forced and batter never reached 1st. 

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9 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

I am chuckling at the idea that the umpires have left the field as players are scoring, not advancing, might be advancing, and the ball is being thrown from base to base.   But the umpires have left the field.   What, are they missing happy hour at Chili's? 

So, WAS this game in Georgia?   And more importantly,  was it a night game? 

 

"That's the night that the lights went out in Georgia. ..."

 

And since this question is posed in the high school section, who cares what a video shows or doesn't show? 

I wasn't at the game but as described they didn't leave the field until R3 scored and 1B was appealed and no further action by the defense was being taken by the defense. You don't wait around your base to "telegraph" that you're waiting for an appeal.

The video was referenced when a few days later when in discussing the play I asked what the other two runners did. The person I was discussing this with didn't know and viewed a youtube video. In the actual game no one thought to check the other runners and only because the batter went toward third base did the defense throw to 1B. I think they thought that if the batter did not advance the run would not be forced home.

I then discussed what if with the person and told them that if R1 and R2 also celebrated they could be appealed and I would rule all as force/1B outs and no run would score but to be safe they should appeal in the "correct" order in case they encountered an ump who thought differently. I told them that no NFHS interp addresses the order of forced base appeals and OBR and NCAA rule different than each other, so we don't know how FED would interp.

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4 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I wasn't at the game but as described they didn't leave the field until R3 scored and 1B was appealed and no further action by the defense was being taken by the defense. You don't wait around your base to "telegraph" that you're waiting for an appeal.

The video was referenced when a few days later when in discussing the play I asked what the other two runners did. The person I was discussing this with didn't know and viewed a youtube video. In the actual game no one thought to check the other runners and only because the batter went toward third base did the defense throw to 1B. I think they thought that if the batter did not advance the run would not be forced home.

I then discussed what if with the person and told them that if R1 and R2 also celebrated they could be appealed and I would rule all as force/1B outs and no run would score but to be safe they should appeal in the "correct" order in case they encountered an ump who thought differently. I told them that no NFHS interp addresses the order of forced base appeals and OBR and NCAA rule different than each other, so we don't know how FED would interp.

Copy that.   I'd be out of there as well when "no further action was taken by the defense".    

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The way I see it is throwing to 1st means nothing ... the batter really needs to be called out by an umpire for deserting his awarded base ... which removes the force from the other three runners.  I've asked this before … if you can't call it abandonment prior to reaching 1B ... what is it?  I've seen one person on this board call it "desertion."

Now the other three are no longer forced, but are still awarded one base each and protected for one base each.  If R1 and R2 abandon, again … it's judgment on the part of the umpires when to call it.  Abandonment is a better bet (timewise) than appealing missed bases.

Seems like the batter should be called out immediately, so as long as R3 hustles across the plate, I don't think abandonment could reasonably be called in time on the other two to keep the game going.

I was vilified on this forum for even suggesting calling abandonment in this scenario. Robin Ventura got called for it on a teammate's walk-off home run. Someone at the highest level is in agreement.

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2 hours ago, VolUmp said:

The way I see it is throwing to 1st means nothing ... the batter really needs to be called out by an umpire for deserting his awarded base ... which removes the force from the other three runners.  I've asked this before … if you can't call it abandonment prior to reaching 1B ... what is it?  I've seen one person on this board call it "desertion."

Now the other three are no longer forced, but are still awarded one base each and protected for one base each.  If R1 and R2 abandon, again … it's judgment on the part of the umpires when to call it.  Abandonment is a better bet (timewise) than appealing missed bases.

Seems like the batter should be called out immediately, so as long as R3 hustles across the plate, I don't think abandonment could reasonably be called in time on the other two to keep the game going.

I was vilified on this forum for even suggesting calling abandonment in this scenario. Robin Ventura got called for it on a teammate's walk-off home run. Someone at the highest level is in agreement.

Thanks for letting us know how you would want it called in any code. But FED wants it appealed. NCAA we don't know, and OBR tells you what to do about it by rule and interp. BTW, we are talking about a walk. Adding a batted ball situation would be confusing. What Ventura sit are you talking about?

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7 hours ago, Jimurray said:

. What Ventura sit are you talking about?

99 NLCS? 

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12 hours ago, VolUmp said:

The way I see it is throwing to 1st means nothing ... the batter really needs to be called out by an umpire for deserting his awarded base ... which removes the force from the other three runners.  I've asked this before … if you can't call it abandonment prior to reaching 1B ... what is it?  I've seen one person on this board call it "desertion."

Now the other three are no longer forced, but are still awarded one base each and protected for one base each.  If R1 and R2 abandon, again … it's judgment on the part of the umpires when to call it.  Abandonment is a better bet (timewise) than appealing missed bases.

Seems like the batter should be called out immediately, so as long as R3 hustles across the plate, I don't think abandonment could reasonably be called in time on the other two to keep the game going.

I was vilified on this forum for even suggesting calling abandonment in this scenario. Robin Ventura got called for it on a teammate's walk-off home run. Someone at the highest level is in agreement.

Under OBR, in the play being discussed, you could follow the rule that allows for calling the batter out.  Note that most suggest that the umpire tell the batter to advance, and only get the out if the batter refuses:

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to
and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire
shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and
order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner
refuses to advance to and touch first base, the
umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending
player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are
out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch
first base, the run shall count, but the offending player
shall be called out.

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So, does order of appeals matter?

Bases loaded, one out, batter hits home run,  R3 touches home, R2 misses third base, R1 misses second base.

DT appeals to second base, and then appeals to third base.

Does run count or not?   Does the appeal of second base negate the force on third base and turn that missed base into a time play?

 

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33 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

So, does order of appeals matter?

Bases loaded, one out, batter hits home run,  R3 touches home, R2 misses third base, R1 misses second base.

DT appeals to second base, and then appeals to third base.

Does run count or not?   Does the appeal of second base negate the force on third base and turn that missed base into a time play?

 

The order of forced base appeals does not matter in OBR. The force existed at the time of the miss. No run scores.

I believe the order does matter in NCAA. 

There is no clear interp in FED. I'm using the OBR interp. Others might use NCAA. To be safe, you should try to do them in the correct order and some would say you should know to do it that way. But there are circunstances where the order was not done "correctly" that would not be the fault of the defense. Possibly a fielder appealing a missed base in live action and then a dugout lookout advising of another missed base.

The sit would qualify for the late Carl Childress quote: "I hope this doesn't happen in one of your games."

Edited to add: I think on batted ball "appeal" of failure to advance the order should be correct because the appeal is actually a putout.

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