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VolUmp

Balk Questioning by nice (ignorant) coach

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9 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Excellent thought.  I never understood how FL made that happen, and if TN gets penalized, I know our state won't go for it, but it's still the best idea I've heard yet. 

The penalty is that (1) the state cannot have its representative serve on the rules committee when it is that state's turn; and (2) if a player in your state breaks a "national" record, they will not go in the NFHS record book.

A state can, however, apply for a 3-year exemption to "test" a different rule.  That is how one state used a modified version of the NCAA P/DH rule in FED competition the last three years...they applied to the NFHS to have permission to use the rule for 3-years to "test" it.  If a state gets permission to use a "test" rule, they must report the results of their "test" to the NFHS.

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8 hours ago, VolUmp said:

I don't understand the question. 

I stated above:

"occasionally unfair" when its avoidable is wrong.  It's broken."

So, no, I fully recognize not every rule can guarantee fairness 100% of the time.  The balk rule, as FED has it written, is not one of those rules.  A balk is a defensive infraction. There should NEVER be an advantage given to the defense following a defensive infraction.

I watched R1 & R2 and a balk, followed by a batter hitting the pitch 340' over the left field wall. End result: runners moved up a base. Batter stayed in the box, grounded out, and ended the inning. A 3-run HR was taken away from the young man because of an ill-conceived and antiquated rule.

Jimurray, please don't rebut this ... I have explained it the very simplest of terms.

Give me an example of where the OBR Rule could work out worse for the offense.

When the balk is ignored because the batter and all baserunners advanced one base and an out results after one of the runners has reached his base or missed his base. Or a wild pick off balk at 1B that allows a runner to be thrown out at 3B.

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1 hour ago, lawump said:

The penalty is that (1) the state cannot have its representative serve on the rules committee when it is that state's turn; and (2) if a player in your state breaks a "national" record, they will not go in the NFHS record book.

A state can, however, apply for a 3-year exemption to "test" a different rule.  That is how one state used a modified version of the NCAA P/DH rule in FED competition the last three years...they applied to the NFHS to have permission to use the rule for 3-years to "test" it.  If a state gets permission to use a "test" rule, they must report the results of their "test" to the NFHS.

How does your state continue to use the old FED rule about no appeal required for the umpire to rule on a missed base?

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3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

When the balk is ignored because the batter and all baserunners advanced one base and an out results after one of the runners has reached his base or missed his base. Or a wild pick off balk at 1B that allows a runner to be thrown out at 3B.

BAD EXAMPLES. 

Those are baserunning errors.  Those runners deserve to be out (past the base to which they are protected).

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2 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

BAD EXAMPLES. 

Those are baserunning errors.  Those runners deserve to be out (past the base to which they are protected).

You asked where the OBR rule would work worse for the offense. I'm assuming compared to the FED ruling that would have taken place. 

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11 hours ago, Jimurray said:

How does your state continue to use the old FED rule about no appeal required for the umpire to rule on a missed base?

Great question.

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9 hours ago, Jimurray said:

You asked where the OBR rule would work worse for the offense. I'm assuming compared to the FED ruling that would have taken place. 

Jim ... please ...

These examples are not the fault of the balk rule. These are faulty base running results.  You're comparing apples with oranges. (Did I REALLY have to say it?)

You cannot provide examples of where the OBR balk rule would punish the offense like the FED RULE because none exist. 

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14 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Jim ... please ...

These examples are not the fault of the balk rule. These are faulty base running results.  You're comparing apples with oranges. (Did I REALLY have to say it?)

You cannot provide examples of where the OBR balk rule would punish the offense like the FED RULE because none exist. 

Ok, just have your state change it. We will work on the rest of the states/nfhs.

btw do you know that OBR has a coach choice not in the balk rule but is a balk and we should give the coach a choice?

 

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38 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Ok, just have your state change it. We will work on the rest of the states/nfhs.

btw do you know that OBR has a coach choice not in the balk rule but is a balk and we should give the coach a choice?

Again, I don't understand your statement.

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18 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Again, I don't understand your statement.

In a very unlikely concocted situation, a baserunning error would not be penalized after a balk if the coach took the penalty instead of the play in OBR. 

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On 6/10/2017 at 11:43 PM, Jimurray said:

In a very unlikely concocted situation, a baserunning error would not be penalized after a balk if the coach took the penalty instead of the play in OBR. 

Please cite the OBR rule that gives the offensive coach ANY TYPE of choice on a balk. Never seen it. Been told it has always been a myth. It's not in the Rules Book, so I'm eager to see your enlightening reply. 

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1 hour ago, VolUmp said:

Please cite the OBR rule that gives the offensive coach ANY TYPE of choice on a balk. Never seen it. Been told it has always been a myth. It's not in the Rules Book, so I'm eager to see your enlightening reply. 

  1. (b)  If a play follows the violation called by the umpire, the manager of the team at bat may advise the umpire-in-chief that he elects to accept the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation.

  2. (c)  Even though the team at bat elects to take the play, the violation shall be recognized and the penalties in subsection (a) will still be in effect.

  3. (d)  If the manager of the team at bat does not elect to accept the play, the umpire-in-chief shall call an automatic ball and, if there are any runners on base, a balk. 

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10 hours ago, Jimurray said:
  1. (b)  If a play follows the violation called by the umpire, the manager of the team at bat may advise the umpire-in-chief that he elects to accept the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation.

  2. (c)  Even though the team at bat elects to take the play, the violation shall be recognized and the penalties in subsection (a) will still be in effect.

  3. (d)  If the manager of the team at bat does not elect to accept the play, the umpire-in-chief shall call an automatic ball and, if there are any runners on base, a balk. 

The offensive team NEVER has a choice on a balk under the 13 violations listed under 6.02 (a).

The rule you posted is for delivering a pitch which is put in play when violations of the following occur;

(2) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;
(3) rub the ball on his glove, person or clothing;
(4) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball;
(5) deface the ball in any manner; or
(6) deliver a ball altered in a manner prescribed by Rule
6.02(c)(2) through (5) or what is called the “shine” ball,
“spit” ball, “mud” ball or “emery” ball. The pitcher is
allowed to rub the ball between his bare hands.
(7) Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance.

 

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21 minutes ago, mrumpiresir said:

The offensive team NEVER has a choice on a balk under the 13 violations listed under 6.02 (a).

The rule you posted is for delivering a pitch which is put in play when violations of the following occur;

(2) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;
(3) rub the ball on his glove, person or clothing;
(4) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball;
(5) deface the ball in any manner; or
(6) deliver a ball altered in a manner prescribed by Rule
6.02(c)(2) through (5) or what is called the “shine” ball,
“spit” ball, “mud” ball or “emery” ball. The pitcher is
allowed to rub the ball between his bare hands.
(7) Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance.

 

That is correct. @VolUmp asked when the OBR balk rule outcome would be worse than the FED rule outcome. I suggested when a baserunning error happens during a certain balk situation. @VolUmp said baserunning errors deserved to be punished. I just pointed out that an unusual and contrived situation could allow a coach to choose a balk penalty in the case of a  base-running error.

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25 minutes ago, mrumpiresir said:

The offensive team NEVER has a choice on a balk under the 13 violations listed under 6.02 (a).

The rule you posted is for delivering a pitch which is put in play when violations of the following occur;

THIS!!!!!!!

Thank you, MrUmpireSir for straightening out one lost sheep. 

Shame on you, Jimurray for perpetuating a myth that we officials try so hard to squelch and clarify.

I told you it wasn't in the OBR Rules Book, and yet you still took sections from the OBR book that described illegal pitches and tried to apply them to the balk rule.  Just say, "Thx ... my bad ... I'll read up on that."  Don't drown in your own ignorance  

I can't even count the number of times I have stated, "the Offensive Head Coach never has any election on a balk." Just like, "A Japanese Head Coach never has an erection on a balk."

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27 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

That is correct. @VolUmp asked when the OBR balk rule outcome would be worse than the FED rule outcome. I suggested when a baserunning error happens during a certain balk situation. @VolUmp said baserunning errors deserved to be punished. I just pointed out that an unusual and contrived situation could allow a coach to choose a balk penalty in the case of a  base-running error.

And your examples are still incorrect. 

The balk protects the runners to one base only. They may continue to run at their own peril after that. An out made on a play AFTER the protected runners try to advance past their bases cannot be undone by an offensive coach saying, "I'll take the penalty."

I'm done with your flawed logic.  The FED balk rule is bad, unfair, assumes that the overhaul of OBR on 1958 was for naught, and contains zero safety consideration(s).

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7 hours ago, VolUmp said:

And your examples are still incorrect. 

The balk protects the runners to one base only. They may continue to run at their own peril after that. An out made on a play AFTER the protected runners try to advance past their bases cannot be undone by an offensive coach saying, "I'll take the penalty."

I'm done with your flawed logic.  The FED balk rule is bad, unfair, assumes that the overhaul of OBR on 1958 was for naught, and contains zero safety consideration(s).

I'm not arguing not to change to OBR but being mindful of my experience with some umpires I wonder if you can train and add caseplays to bring everyone up to speed. Perhaps @volump could lead the way in Tennessee with that state making a unilateral change. To ease the worries of some, if he encounters them in that state he could even propose not the OBR rule but the myth. Coach choice would eliminate most unfairness except for overrunning your protection or missing a base. It would be anathema to me however.


But lets see if there are any holes in my unlikely contrived scenario? F1 is doctoring the ball in some manner and with R1 stealing on the pitch the batter hit a grounder and was out at 1B as R1 missed 2B and made it to 3B on the play. Action relaxes and the ball is changed out, ending up in the HT offense possesion, who, lets say, already suspected something. With a new ball the PU is about to point to F1 who we know is going to appeal at 2B after all the yelling and screaming from the dugout. But with time still out the offensive manager, knowing his R2 will be out on appeal, brings the doctored ball out. PU takes a look at it and checks F1 and finds proof. So the offensive manager has a choice between the play, R3 and 1 out with R3 going to be out on appeal or the penalty, balk,  no outs, R2, same batter with maybe a ball added to the count. It's not clear if both ball and balk are applied together. Chain of custody of the ball might present a problem in applying the penalty to the play.

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On 6/13/2017 at 9:04 AM, VolUmp said:

Just like, "A Japanese Head Coach never has an erection on a balk."

Seriously? You actually had the gall to post that?

It's one thing that we put up with the umpire-related nonsense you post. This is just wrong.

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17 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Coach choice would eliminate most unfairness except for overrunning your protection or missing a base

Still missing the fact that a baserunning error should be penalized. 

17 hours ago, Jimurray said:

So the offensive manager has a choice between the play, R3 and 1 out with R3 going to be out on appeal or the penalty, balk,  no outs, R2, same batter with maybe a ball added to the count.

Nothing but a TWP. Taking away run-scoring hits (even HRs) is the singular problem — and the reason for the 1958 OBR rule fix. 

17 hours ago, MooseLoop said:

Not funny.  Offensive.

I think it's funny.  Sophomoric, maybe, but I bet not one Japanese person is offended. If you're not Japanese, and you're offended, I don't care.  My Japanese bro-in-law constantly says, "All white people look alike to me," and he's a member of the clergy.  Ya wanna call him a racist?  Ya wanna call him offensive?  JUST RELAX. 

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7 hours ago, ElkOil said:

Seriously? You actually had the gall to post that?

It's one that we put up with the umpire-related nonsense you post. This is just wrong.

Yes, I had the gall (shudder .....)

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12 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Still missing the fact that a baserunning error should be penalized. 

Nothing but a TWP. Taking away run-scoring hits (even HRs) is the singular problem — and the reason for the 1958 OBR rule fix. 

I think it's funny.  Sophomoric, maybe, but I bet not one Japanese person is offended. If you're not Japanese, and you're offended, I don't care.  My Japanese bro-in-law constantly says, "All white people look alike to me," and he's a member of the clergy.  Ya wanna call him a racist?  Ya wanna call him offensive?  JUST RELAX. 

Ok, let's go straight OBR for balks in FED. I look foward to your next post on the subject explaining how you convinced all of TN to implement the rule either unilaterally or as an approved test. 

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36 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Ok, let's go straight OBR for balks in FED. I look foward to your next post on the subject explaining how you convinced all of TN to implement the rule either unilaterally or as an approved test. 

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On 6/8/2017 at 11:24 AM, KenBAZ said:

This is good news to me. Where did you see it? I spend the first couple of weeks of HS season practicing, "Time, that's a balk!". emoji2.png

 

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

 

 

 

This mechanic is acceptable, too...Time/Balk...

However, if you work leagues and/or conferences which use OBR and NCAA codes, you can see what jackpots you can end up in if you use the "Time/Balk" sequence.  So, as suggested, I've changed to the "Balk/Time" cadence in HS.  Just have to remember when you're working OBR/NCAA games the "Time" element is not in the equation.

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