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Verbal OBS (FED) - Was I right or being OOO?


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Situation:

JV game, solo. 2 outs, R1. 

As the pitcher leans in for the sign and starts to come set F3 loudly is yelling BACK! BACK! to R1 and of course smacking his glove. He is so loud as to break into my concentration of watching F1 do his thing. I glance over and it is obvious that he is trying to make R1 think his base coach is yelling back. I watch R1 keep looking over to see who is yelling as well as notice he has really shortened his lead as he is not certain who is yelling.

Thinking that this behavior is not what we want HS players to do and that to me the pattern of play was being disrupted by R1 halving his lead I enforced obstruction on F3 and awarded R1 2nd base. I also thought that F3's action was preventing the 1st base coach from being able to do his job due to F3's yelling at R1. Next pitch was strike 3 for the end of the inning.

 

2-22-1 Obstruction and Fake Tag

ART 1: Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personnel that hinders a runner or changes the patter of play as in 5-1-3 and 8-3-2; or when a catcher or fielder hinders a batter as in 5-1-2b, 8-1-1e, 8-3-1c and 8-3-2. When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action and the umpire has authority to determine which base or bases shall be awarded the runners according to the rule violated (Exception 8-4-2c, 8-4-2d).

ART 2: A fake tag is an act by a defensive player without the ball that simulates a tag. A fake tag is considered obstruction.

ART 3: The fielder without possession of the ball denies access to the base the runner is attempting to achieve.

 

The only reference to verbal obstruction I could find in the case book is not specific to this situation but to hindering a stealing runner:

2.22.1 Situation A: R1 attempts to steal second. F2, upon receiving the pitch, throws a pop-up to F6. F5 yells "get back, get back." R1 thinks B2 has hit a pop-up and starts back to first where he is tagged out. RULING: This is verbal obstruction and R1 shall be awarded second base.

 

So did I punch the clown on this?

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I think it's a bit much to invoke verbal obstruction on this, though you have rule support to do so.  R1 can clearly see the pitcher with the ball, so why would he listen to F3's lame attempt to disrupt his lead?  That said, I would have told F3 to knock it off to prevent any potential problems as the game progresses.

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The key to getting this call right is the judgment of hindrance. You mention that R1 shortened his lead, but for how long? I think that this is the basis of grayhawk's comment that OBS is "a bit much" here: without substantial hindrance, it's nothing.

Compare the case play, which has the runner giving up a stolen base and being tagged out. That's evident hindrance that must be called. Your R1 shortening his lead as he figures out what's happening isn't enough hindrance (for me) to count as OBS.

And, for game management, tell F3 to knock it off.

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On numerous occasions I've instructed middle infielder to stop imatating the offense. It's never gotten to the point where I felt like I need to award a base.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

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Thanks all for the feedback.

In a 2 man game I would hope U2 would definitely stop this quickly.

To answer your question Maven about how long did R1 shorten his lead? To be honest I do not know. My focus was more on F1 and the ball than on R1 and F3. How loud F3 was being is what triggered me even noticing his actions. If he was a little more subtle then I doubt I would have heard/took notice of anything.

In the future a good knock it off will work for me.

Thanks! 

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15 hours ago, noumpere said:

Or ...

 

Tell F2 to go out to the mound, call F3 in and tell F3 to knock it off.  Between innings, get to the head coach.  Next time, enforce it.

It was odd that F3 in the 6th or 7th started this behavior... coupled with the fact the offending team was leading, if I recall by 20 or so runs so it just looked bad. 

The HC who was at 3rd stopped on his way by and apologized stating he had told F3 on multiple occasions not to do that in prior games. After this there was nary a peep from F3 which got me where I wanted but using the wrong method.

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  • 1 year later...

From the 2016 BRD (section 375, pp. 250-51):  Verbal obstruction is treated the same as physical obstruction. PENALTY:  The obstructed runner is awarded one base in advance of his position on base. (2-22-1; 2.22.1a)

Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  If a defensive player tries to confuse an opponent by yelling “Go!” to a runner tagging, the umpire declares verbal obstruction if the affected runner reacts to the opponent’s attempt to confuse. PENALTY:  The affected runner is awarded one base. The umpire warns the player committing the act. (Website 2004 #12)

SITUATION 12: With R3 on third, B2 hits a fly ball to the outfield. As the runner on third tags, the defensive coach (in the third-base dugout) yells, “Go, go, go,” to the runner tagging. R3, as a consequence, leaves the base before the catch and must return to tag the base. RULING: This is verbal obstruction. At the end of playing action, U1 will award R3 home due to the obstruction. U1 will also warn the coach that his actions are not in accordance with fair play. (2-22-1, 3-3-1g-4, 8-3-2)

“Verbal obstruction must affect the play before the umpire may penalize it.”

Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  Any verbal decoy, such as “I’ve got it,” is obstruction. (Website 2001 #14)

SITUATION 14: With runners on first and second and one out, the batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop. The second baseman calls "I got it" and acts as if it is a pop-up. The runners stay at their respective bases and a double play is made, second to first. RULING: This is verbal obstruction. Runners will be awarded third and second. There are two outs since the out on the batter-runner will stand. (2-22-1; 8-3-2)

Play 239-375:  R1, R3, 0 outs. F1 pauses in the set position. From the defensive first-base dugout, someone yells, “Back!” R1 reacts by diving toward first. As R1 scrambles for the bag, the pitcher throws wildly toward third with the ball ricocheting off the fence and heading for the bullpen, with F7 in hot pursuit. R3 scores. R1 gets up and tries for second but is thrown out. Ruling:  In FED, R1 was verbally obstructed. He is awarded second. R3’s run counts:  On the obstruction, the ball was delayed dead: 0 outs, one run in, runner on second. In NCAA/OBR, there is no verbal obstruction. The play stands: one out, one run in.

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So would it follow that in play 239-375 had the pickoff throw been handled cleanly R1 would  not be awarded 2B?  

What if R1 dives back into 1b and F1 delivers a pitch?  Can R1 be awarded 2B under the premise that he was hindered from attempting to steal 2B?  

What  if we have a hit by the batter?  GB to F6, steps on 2B for the force out. Award R1 2B?  

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 12/30/2018 at 12:56 PM, POLOGREEN2 said:

JV game...tell F3 what he did wrong and why !!!

Thanks! From 18 months back... my game has evolved a little. I just eject them now :HD::wow:

 

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On 12/25/2018 at 12:54 AM, Richvee said:

So would it follow that in play 239-375 had the pickoff throw been handled cleanly R1 would  not be awarded 2B?  

What if R1 dives back into 1b and F1 delivers a pitch?  Can R1 be awarded 2B under the premise that he was hindered from attempting to steal 2B?  

What  if we have a hit by the batter?  GB to F6, steps on 2B for the force out. Award R1 2B?  

Hmmm.  Never got any feedback on these scenarios. Any thoughts?  FED rules of course. 

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On 12/24/2018 at 10:54 PM, Richvee said:

So would it follow that in play 239-375 had the pickoff throw been handled cleanly R1 would  not be awarded 2B?  

What if R1 dives back into 1b and F1 delivers a pitch?  Can R1 be awarded 2B under the premise that he was hindered from attempting to steal 2B?  

What  if we have a hit by the batter?  GB to F6, steps on 2B for the force out. Award R1 2B?  

Personally - if R1 dives back, he reacted...it's OBS.  I think the key element of the case play is that it was delayed dead ball, to give instruction on how to handle all the crap that happened after - the OBS occurred at the moment R1 was tricked into diving back into first base.

I guess the question is whether or not the delayed dead ball extends to the beginning of the pitching motion, or the completion of the pitch (and anything that results from it) - ie. R1 dives back, pitcher waits a couple of beats, then pitches - are you killing the play before the pitch, or extending the delayed dead ball until the pitcher attempts a picks off, pitches,  or steps off rubber?

Assuming you let him pitch..

The HBP .  He gets second on the OBS, and he gets second on the HBP - concurrent awards to the same base.  Same principle as ball four going out of play.

For GB to F6, wouldn't you handle it the same way as F4 obstructing R1 running to second - or situation 14 above?  R1 gets second...B/R determined by whether F6 then made the play to first?

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2 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Personally - if R1 dives back, he reacted...it's OBS.  I think the key element of the case play is that it was delayed dead ball, to give instruction on how to handle all the crap that happened after - the OBS occurred at the moment R1 was tricked into diving back into first base.

I guess the question is whether or not the delayed dead ball extends to the beginning of the pitching motion, or the completion of the pitch (and anything that results from it) - ie. R1 dives back, pitcher waits a couple of beats, then pitches - are you killing the play before the pitch, or extending the delayed dead ball until the pitcher attempts a picks off, pitches,  or steps off rubber?

Assuming you let him pitch..

The HBP .  He gets second on the OBS, and he gets second on the HBP - concurrent awards to the same base.  Same principle as ball four going out of play.

For GB to F6, wouldn't you handle it the same way as F4 obstructing R1 running to second - or situation 14 above?  R1 gets second...B/R determined by whether F6 then made the play to first?

Poor wording on my part. I'm asking about 3scenarios.

1. Pickoff to 3B handled cleanly as R1 dives back to 1B because defense yelled "BACK". ..Is this OBS on R1, award 2B?

2. Pitch is delivered, (taken, swing and miss, called strike)..R1 dove back to 1B because of defense yelling "BACK"....is this OBS award R1 2B?

3. GB to F6 so easy force on R1 at2B because he dove back.. OBS? 

 

I think #3 is clearly verbal OBS. 1 &2 I'm not so sure about. 

 

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1 minute ago, Richvee said:

Poor wording on my part. I'm asking about 3scenarios.

1. Pickoff to 3B handled cleanly as R1 dives back to 1B because defense yelled "BACK". ..Is this OBS on R1, award 2B?

2. Pitch is delivered, (taken, swing and miss, called strike)..R1 dove back to 1B because of defense yelling "BACK"....is this OBS award R1 2B?

3. GB to F6 so easy force on R1 at2B because he dove back.. OBS? 

 

I think #3 is clearly verbal OBS. 1 &2 I'm not so sure about. 

 

I think so - I think the moment R1 dives back OBS has occurred - I agree with the wording above from Hopkins - if the runner reacts to the verbal decoy OBS has occurred.

I don't dismiss the statement that it must "affect the play" - I'm just giving it a broad interpretation.

However, if you were to get a little narrower or stricter on "affect the play" I would still argue that #2 is indeed OBS, following your previous thoughts about hindering a possible SB attempt.

One could surmise that R1 might have also attempted to go to second on the pickoff to third.  The verbal decoy, and R1's reaction to it, eliminated any other possible scenario - it did alter the play, even if it didn't necessarily put R1 at a disadvantage.

In any respect, I'm giving a high benefit of the doubt to the offense, and very little rope to the defense.

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Had this happen a few years back as a SS yelled "back, back. back" to R2.  This is after warning him he could not do this.  I called out the OBS and killed the baseball after the P stepped off the rubber. DC came out.  Compared it to a fake snap count by the defense in football.  Crisis averted.  

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