Arguing Balks in FED games

[VolUmp]

Yes ... I realize the FED book, like the MLB (OBR) book, does state clearly that a coach may not object to a judgment call.

Traditionally, we let them bark and even delay the game shortly to object to a judgment call as long as they leave when we tell them to.

We all have an unwritten rule that you just can't argue balls and strikes.  In MLB, the tradition goes so far as to state that as long as the batter and/or catcher don't turn and look at the PU, they can actually say quite a bit without penalty, but turn around, face the PU and argue, and you're usually gone.

SO ... now I'm hearing that there is also an unwritten rule that a coach may not argue a balk call (except ask the question what did he do, and he's entitled to an explanation on the step balk).

QUESTION:

Who enforces this is HS?  I get all the time:

Coach:  "What did he do?"

Me: "No stop, coach.  Blew through the stop."

Coach: "He stopped the same way he always does!"

Now ... I want to know who would restrict a coach to the dugout for this — a blatant argument of a non-step balk.

My guess is no one.  My guess is you would all do what I do the first time.

"Coach, I didn't see a stop — it has to be complete and discernible.  Now please ... we're not arguing.  Let's play ball.

[ricka56]

45 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Coach:  "What did he do?"

Me: "No stop, coach.  Blew through the stop."

I'll answer this question...even if asked/answered across the field

45 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Coach: "He stopped the same way he always does!"

Now ... I want to know who would restrict a coach to the dugout for this — a blatant argument of a non-step balk.

My guess is no one.  My guess is you would all do what I do the first time.

"Coach, I didn't see a stop — it has to be complete and discernible.  Now please ... we're not arguing.  Let's play ball.

No ejection required. What is required is no response, none. Your plead to not argue is diminished by your arguing back and wanting the last word on the matter. He didn't ask another question. No response is needed. Keep quiet and watch for him to do/say something stupid. 

[Cav]

3 hours ago, ricka56 said:

What is required is no response, none. Your plead to not argue is diminished by your arguing back and wanting the last word on the matter...Keep quiet and watch for him to do/say something stupid. 

“When you're winning the argument, shut up.”[1]

 

---

[1] Ed Zackery, Laws of Umpiring, Number 15.

 

[Aging_Arbiter]

Coach:  "What did he do?"

Me: "No stop, coach.  Blew through the stop."

Coach: "He stopped the same way he always does!"

 

Coach, you asked, I answered............lets play ball.

[ALStripes17]

Yes ... I realize the FED book, like the MLB (OBR) book, does state clearly that a coach may not object to a judgment call.
Traditionally, we let them bark and even delay the game shortly to object to a judgment call as long as they leave when we tell them to.
We all have an unwritten rule that you just can't argue balls and strikes.  In MLB, the tradition goes so far as to state that as long as the batter and/or catcher don't turn and look at the PU, they can actually say quite a bit without penalty, but turn around, face the PU and argue, and you're usually gone.
SO ... now I'm hearing that there is also an unwritten rule that a coach may not argue a balk call (except ask the question what did he do, and he's entitled to an explanation on the step balk).
QUESTION:
Who enforces this is HS?  I get all the time:
Coach:  "What did he do?"
Me: "No stop, coach.  Blew through the stop."
Coach: "He stopped the same way he always does!"
Now ... I want to know who would restrict a coach to the dugout for this — a blatant argument of a non-step balk.
My guess is no one.  My guess is you would all do what I do the first time.
"Coach, I didn't see a stop — it has to be complete and discernible.  Now please ... we're not arguing.  Let's play ball.

The second response is the same as a chirp about a pitch. Ignore it unless it 1) takes away from the game at play or 2) it's accompanied with some major demonstration that is showing you up.


Easy to shut down in HS. No response from the OP situation honestly. I answered the question and that was it. If he keeps on, I go down my IA(W/R)E

[maven]

8 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Coach:  "What did he do?"

Me: "No stop, coach.  Blew through the stop."

Coach: "He stopped the same way he always does!"

This situation sets up differently for me, because I announce "No stop!" when I'm calling the balk. This nips the "what did he do?" question in the bud most of the time.

When it doesn't, I'll answer, "No stop." I would not add, "Blew through the stop," which sounds defensive, as if I were talking myself into the call, and adds nothing substantial to "No stop."

A neutral response to coach's invitation to argue the judgment call would be something like, "Not in my judgment." That closes the door on the argument: what can he say next? Probably that I'm wrong, which is fine: he's entitled to think that I'm wrong. Let's play ball.

7 hours ago, ricka56 said:

What is required is no response, none. Your plead to not argue is diminished by your arguing back and wanting the last word on the matter. He didn't ask another question. No response is needed. Keep quiet and watch for him to do/say something stupid. 

I agree that we should not continue to discuss the judgment call. But as a game management tactic, ignoring the coach is not a reliable tactic (in baseball — it often works in basketball). Many coaches will not let it go, and now they're louder and angrier (for being ignored).

Too often we get into it with coaches because it's not enough to be right, we have to be seen to be right. Once we let it go — once we accept that coaches generally won't see it our way, as their perception is influenced by their legitimate rooting interest — it is enough to announce the call (balk) and its basis (no stop) without arguing about whether he did stop, used his usual motion, always does that, etc. etc.

[Thawk]

13 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Coach: "He stopped the same way he always does!"

Now ... I want to know who would restrict a coach to the dugout for this — a blatant argument of a non-step balk.

My guess is no one.  My guess is you would all do what I do the first time.

"Coach, I didn't see a stop — it has to be complete and discernible.  Now please ... we're not arguing.  Let's play ball.

As long as he doesn't use the magic 3 letter word "Y-O-U", let it go.

[maven]

52 minutes ago, Thawk751 said:

As long as he doesn't use the magic 3 letter word "Y-O-U", let it go.

Using 'you' is not actionable by itself. Only if the context makes the remark personal and objectionable will we have a problem.

[Thawk]

@maven That is exactly what I was trying to describe.  Thanks for helping me clarify.

[Aging_Arbiter]

19 hours ago, Thawk751 said:

As long as he doesn't use the magic 3 letter word "Y-O-U", let it go.

 

18 hours ago, maven said:

Using 'you' is not actionable by itself. Only if the context makes the remark personal and objectionable will we have a problem.

i.e.  @Thawk751, Y-O-U are the most knowledgeable umpire that we have seen!!   Yep, he's gotta go.

[maven]

1 hour ago, Thawk751 said:

@maven That is exactly what I was trying to describe.  Thanks for helping me clarify.

I'm sorry to have picked on you, but we sometimes hear that "shortcut": "if he says 'you', then eject him!"

I doubt that anyone really applies that shortcut, but I can't help correcting it when it pops up. Pet peeve about lazy umpiring, I guess. And since I don't mean to imply that you're lazy, I apologize.

[maineump]

I don't mind them asking - they may not have seen it. Give the quick - no stop reply then move on. If he continues, like Maven said "In my opinion" locks it up - he has no place to go then.

If your balking in the winning run, then you may get the big blow-up, but generally speaking, they will ask, disagree and move on. Basically it is an agree to disagree arrangement and we continue on.

[Thawk]

4 hours ago, maven said:

I'm sorry to have picked on you, but we sometimes hear that "shortcut": "if he says 'you', then eject him!"

I doubt that anyone really applies that shortcut, but I can't help correcting it when it pops up. Pet peeve about lazy umpiring, I guess. And since I don't mean to imply that you're lazy, I apologize.

NO, NO, NO @maven that's what I meant to say.  I appreciate the clarification.

[HokieUmp]

Had a situation like the OP this week.  Maybe others have let it go, but a kid at this hitch-looking deal when he came set.  And it was one of the first pitches in the set in the first inning.  Maybe it was because our association had a briefing on balking, but I had the kid stopping, then moving his hands to a lower set position.  (Given where the convo went with the coach, he may have felt it was continuous movement, but I didn't.)

Coach:  What'd he do?

Me:  Start and stop.

Coach:  He does that with every pitch!

Me:  I give some leeway on movement, but he stopped and moved again.

Coach:  But he does that on every pitch.

Me:  [Silence.]  [Thinking:  Well, we'll be out here on the 40 degrees and 20-30mph wind for a long effing time, then!]

Coach:  [Walks away,  Says something to the kid - I'd already stopped paying attention.]

Lo and behold, he DIDN'T do that on every pitch!  He brought his hands straight down to the belt area in one smooth motion, and didn't dick around any further!  So apparently, whatever disease this kid had that made him do that on the mound?  I CURED him!  Yay for me!

So I let the coach have a brief say.  But it never became an argument about balks, since it takes two people.  Give him what you had, and that's it.

[maven]

You might have used, "not in my judgment, coach" instead of silence. But you were right not to argue judgment.

Silence doesn't work for me.

[HokieUmp]

6 hours ago, maven said:

You might have used, "not in my judgment, coach" instead of silence. But you were right not to argue judgment.

Silence doesn't work for me.

As in, you hate the concept, or in that it doesn't work on coaches you encounter?

For me, I had nothing else to say at that point, so I went with no response.  He's not supposed to really do much other than ask "what'd he do?" AND by not saying anything, he's got nothing to turn against me.

I'm not going to suggest silence works ALL that time, but I had nothing more to say.

[maven]

27 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

As in, you hate the concept, or in that it doesn't work on coaches you encounter?

As in, I can't make it work. People get pissed when they think I'm ignoring them.

[HokieUmp]

1 hour ago, maven said:

As in, I can't make it work. People get pissed when they think I'm ignoring them.

Strangely enough, it's the second time this year I've used it, and it worked then, too.

First game of the year, had a lot of close plays on the bases.  Coach wasn't happy with his team, and just missed a 3rd strike call.  So I safe a BR at first, and he's kind of had "enough."  I let him walk all the way to me, since I knew what was coming, and was in no hurry.  The first thing he said was "That was at least a step!"  That wasn't true, so I knew he was already just arguing for the sound of his own voice.

"You can't anticipate that play!" [Thinking:  "Coach, if I'm anticipating anything it's strikes and outs.  Never a safe."]

"You've been so good all day!  How can you miss that one??"  [This was a new tack to me - odd enough that I looked up, made eye contact, and chuckled.]  "You've been so good!"

When he realized I hadn't said anything, and wasn't going to, he took a slight step back, and kind of pushed downward with both fists, kind of like a little kid having a tantrum, and upped the ante slightly:  "You *missed* that!  How could you miss it!  You missed that!"

[Again:  I've said nothing.]  At this point, he's done his griping, vented some, and gotten NONE of my own words to use against me.  So he turned and walked away.

Total time elapsed, from the time he arrived out in C until he turned away:  maybe 30-45 seconds?  No ejection, no prolonged argument, nothing personal (other than to say I missed it, but again - it was thisclose, so for him to act like it was bigger than life, he had nothing).

Again, I don't advocate it for everything and everyone - had other coach chats that had to be addressed already this year - but it actually seems like it can work.  If I could only figure out the alchemy enough to know exactly WHEN to use it .......