FED last time by question

[Mudisfun]

So I am having trouble following the penalty (b) in this scenario:

8.2.6 Sit H

R1 is stealing on the pitch and a fly ball is hit to right field. R1 misses 2nd by (a) a few inches or (b) a greater distance because he cuts across the infield missing 2nd base as he advanced toward 3rd base. F9 catches the fly ball and R1 now retouches second base as he retreats to 1st base. F9's throw is errant and R1 reaches 1st base ahead of the throw. The defense now appeals that R1 should be out as he did not initially touch 2nd base. 

RULING: In (a) R1 is not declared out as he touched 2nd base on his return to 1st and as a result corrected his mistake by touching 2nd on his last time by the base. In (b), R1 is out on the appeal because a runner who misses a base by such a great distance in order to gain an advantage would still be vulnerable to appeal under the principal of last time by.

 

So I believe R1 should be out due to his being a cheating little player but I am having trouble understanding how when he clipped the corner and progressed past the bag he loses his right to fix this issue so that on retreating his touch of 2nd would not correct the failure to touch. Is the assumption that by missing to such an extent and obviously being intentional negate any opportunity to fix his blatant and unsportsmanlike conduct? Is there a way for R1 to correct this other than pray the defense fails to appeal? Does the principal of last time by only protect/address obviously innocent errors and not intentional ones?

 

I have zero issues getting the out; he deserves but just need help getting my brain from A to B so to speak.

 

[Welpe]

This is what is known as a "gross miss" (I think Evans uses this term but somebody else can confirm).

The general idea is that on a gross miss, unless the runner corrects his miss immediately, last time by will not protect him on an appeal. In other words, if he doesn't fix it immediately, he never can.

And I don't think there's any actual rule support in Fed for this ruling other than the case play.

[ALStripes17]

This is what is known as a "gross miss" (I think Evans uses this term but somebody else can confirm).

The general idea is that on a gross miss, unless the runner corrects his miss immediately, last time by will not protect him on an appeal. In other words, if he doesn't fix it immediately, he never can.

And I don't think there's any actual rule support in Fed for this ruling other than the case play.

And I'll never understand why FED allows this yet doesn't mention it in the rules.

Hey guys, remember our great principle 'Last Time By' ... Always always always...Unless he misses by a huge margin... Then that cheating punk can't get it. So not always... But most of the time. Don't cheat kids.

[Welpe]

"So guys Last Time By says 'that last touch corrects any previous baserunning infraction.' Does it apply to a gross miss?"

"Hmmm, good point Bob, it doesn't. We should fix this."

"I agree Jim, let's leave the rule alone and write a contradictory case play."

[Stk004]

I don't really see how this is cheating because, I mean, if it's really that obvious that he missed 2nd it should be an easy appeal for the defense. He's required to touch all the bases in order, or reverse order, and if he doesn't do so there's protocol for the defense to get an out. Negating the "last time by" because of a "gross miss" seems unnecessary to me. 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 edition of the Baseball Rules Differences (section 5, pp. 17-19):

Appeals:  Last Time By

FED:  If a runner, either advancing or returning, correctly touches a base that was missed the last time he passes by that base, his final touch corrects any previous baserunning infraction. (8-2-6L; 8.2.6H; Website 2011 #15)  EXCEPT:

Official Interpretation: Hopkins:  “Last time by” does not apply when a runner misses a base to gain an unfair advantage. (Website 2011 #16 and 18)

NCAA:  Same as FED. (2-52) Official Interpretation:  Paronto:  Same as FED official interpretation. (10/17/13)

Play 4-5:  R1 leaves too soon on a fly ball. He touches second and advances near third when he realizes he must return and does so by running directly across the diamond toward first. The ball gets by F3; and R1 after retouching first, makes it safely to second. The defense appeals that he missed second, the base on which he now stands, during his return to first.  RULING:  In FED and NCAA, the umpire will uphold the appeal. At those levels “last time by” applies to situations where the runner could have touched the base but missed it by less than his body’s length. In OBR, the appeal is denied, and the runner is not out.

[Welpe]

That's curious. I would have sworn it was the same in OBR.

[maven]

16 minutes ago, Welpe said:

That's curious. I would have sworn it was the same in OBR.

The concepts of cheating and sportsmanship generally get a different treatment in pro ball as compared to amateur (esp. HS). The lack of a "gross miss exception" to last time by is akin to the lack of a MC provision.

[maven]

1 hour ago, Stk004 said:

I don't really see how this is cheating because, I mean, if it's really that obvious that he missed 2nd it should be an easy appeal for the defense. He's required to touch all the bases in order, or reverse order, and if he doesn't do so there's protocol for the defense to get an out. Negating the "last time by" because of a "gross miss" seems unnecessary to me. 

In the case play, the runner cuts the corner and misses the base while advancing, but while retreating touches the base on the way back to retouch. So he satisfies the letter of "last time by" and would seem to be immune to appeal based solely on the rule.

By interpretation and case play, his gross miss is an uncorrectable error that leaves him liable to be called out on appeal.

[Welpe]

The concepts of cheating and sportsmanship generally get a different treatment in pro ball as compared to amateur (esp. HS). The lack of a "gross miss exception" to last time by is akin to the lack of a MC provision.

I understand that generally however I would have sworn I read an interp for OBR that was the same as NFHS and NCAA. Maybe it was from Roder? I'll have to check.

[Welpe]

I just checked and it was Roder who, at least at one time, held that a gross miss was not correctable with last time by.

Does anybody have anything more current for OBR other than the BRD?

[Jimurray]

9 hours ago, Welpe said:

I just checked and it was Roder who, at least at one time, held that a gross miss was not correctable with last time by.

Does anybody have anything more current for OBR other than the BRD?

I believe the BRD is currently current as I think it quotes a recent communication with Wendelstedt.

[Mudisfun]

Thanks all for your replies. Your reinforcement of the gross miss as un-correctable makes the exception make sense.

[lawump]

We had an issue here in SC about 6-8 years ago where some coaches started teaching their players (when the player is an R2 with multiple runners) to grossly cut third-base.  They would basically run on the grass inside the cutout.  They were taking advantage of the fact that many plate umpires (in a two man crew) would not be looking at R2's touch of third base, but rather would be watching R3's touch of home or something else (even though plate umpires should not be watching "something else" in most circumstances!).  Anyways, this problem came to light when enough umpires (often sitting in the stands waiting to umpire the next game) began to notice a pattern and concluded that it had to be more than a coincidence.  Finally, a head coach who was frank enough gave a denial with a large smirk on his face and dripping with sarcasm.  The state high school league got wind of it and finally issued an edict stating that if it happens, the runner, third base coach and head coach (if the head coach was not the third base coach) were all to be ejected.  (Of course, the runner was to be called out...which isn't a problem because we don't have missed base appeal plays in SC.)

Anyways, the problem miraculously disappeared.  This issue hasn't been a problem for several years and the administration at the high school league has changed since 6-8 years ago...so I doubt the High School League would support us if we ejected three participants as a result of this happening today.  Rather, today I'd just call the runner out at the end of the play (because, again, we have no appeal plays in SC).  But, the League's edict 6-8 years ago did resolve this "sportsmanship" issue pretty quickly.