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NFHS Appeal Play

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NFHS Rule Set:

I have been umpiring NCAA and other leagues/associations that play under the OBR rule set. This year I will be doing high school baseball.

Did I read this right in the NFHS rule book.  On a dead ball appeal the coach or defensive player can appeal a missed base or leaving early on a tag up situation and the umpire will make a decision right after they say/verbalize it????

In OBR/NCAA rule set we know on a dead ball appeal the ball must be put back in play before an appeal is allowed to be made (pitcher on rubber with the ball and umpire says "play")

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NFHS Rule Set:

I have been umpiring NCAA and other leagues/associations that play under the OBR rule set. This year I will be doing high school baseball.

Did I read this right in the NFHS rule book.  On a dead ball appeal the coach or defensive player can appeal a missed base or leaving early on a tag up situation and the umpire will make a decision right after they say/verbalize it????

In OBR/NCAA rule set we know on a dead ball appeal the ball must be put back in play before an appeal is allowed to be made (pitcher on rubber with the ball and umpire says "play")

Correct. A coach or defensive player may make a dead ball verbal appeal in NFHS.

Typically the ball will be live and a coach will start screaming 'he missed the base' or 'he didn't tag up'. Some umpires have been known/taught to call 'Time' and ask the coach what he said in order for the verbal appeal to be valid.

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4 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Typically the ball will be live and a coach will start screaming 'he missed the base' or 'he didn't tag up'. Some umpires have been known/taught to call 'Time' and ask the coach what he said in order for the verbal appeal to be valid.

I've been known to say this. However, it's crucial not to kill it until all baserunners have completed their advance and play has ceased. Don't kill it with runners running just to hear a dead-ball appeal.

For the OP: the dead-ball appeal has been part of FED baseball for decades. Its rationale is to eliminate some of the nonsense that happens surrounding live-ball appeals. Don't let its unfamiliarity blind you to its merits!

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I guess I'll be the naysayer.  At the Varsity level, these kids know how to handle a live ball appeal.  I don't know where some of you guys call, but the level we see is top notch more often than not, with kids going to play college ball and many getting drafted either out of high school or their 3rd year in college.  A properly executed live ball appeal is ten times easier than a run down.  It's easier than turning a double play.  It's easier than hitting a home run.  So I'm not gonna side with FED on this one.

Major League Baseball had the same rule until 1958.  After taking enough home runs off the board, and punishing the offense for a defensive infraction, it was finally fixed.  FED doesn't keep this rule for any other reason but they think we officials can't handle calling balks properly without killing the play.  "Just make 'em all dead -- who cares how unfair it is."  I only sympathize with FED's safety concerns.  Mothers sue school systems for two-stitch wounds.

Yeah... Everyone knows how to do the standard live ball appeal...You always have to go back to the rubber and step off, right?!?

Please...


Edited to fix autocorrect :)

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I've been known to say this. However, it's crucial not to kill it until all baserunners have completed their advance and play has ceased. Don't kill it with runners running just to hear a dead-ball appeal.

For the OP: the dead-ball appeal has been part of FED baseball for decades. Its rationale is to eliminate some of the nonsense that happens surrounding live-ball appeals. Don't let its unfamiliarity blind you to its merits!

I endorse it as well, with your caveat as well (although I always hope that's understood!). I just know it's a hot topic among some vets on here.

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I'll stand with those who like it as well. I know it's a Potentially Unpopular Opinion, but I think FED gets a bum rap on many issues, including this one. Especially at lower levels, but also HS varsity, spare me the kabuki theater of clumsily putting it in play and conducting a live ball appeal (or a base on balls, but that's a different thread). The point is the appeal - did he miss the base or not, etc. Ask and move on.

Yea, it's not the OBR tradition. Home runs used to count if they went over the fence on one bounce, too. Life goes on.

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1 hour ago, maven said:

I've been known to say this. However, it's crucial not to kill it until all baserunners have completed their advance and play has ceased. Don't kill it with runners running just to hear a dead-ball appeal.

For the OP: the dead-ball appeal has been part of FED baseball for decades. Its rationale is to eliminate some of the nonsense that happens surrounding live-ball appeals. Don't let its unfamiliarity blind you to its merits!

Some FED rules seem strange, clunky, and not well thought out (dead ball balks anyone). But this one I actually really like. So much craziness can happen when a team attempts a live ball appeal (such as throwing it away or even out of play). The dead ball appeal removes all that, and just makes it easier on everyone.

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I guess I'll be the naysayer.  At the Varsity level, these kids know how to handle a live ball appeal.  I don't know where some of you guys call, but the level we see is top notch more often than not, with kids going to play college ball and many getting drafted either out of high school or their 3rd year in college.  A properly executed live ball appeal is ten times easier than a run down.  It's easier than turning a double play.  It's easier than hitting a home run.  So I'm not gonna side with FED on this one.

5 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

Some FED rules seem strange, clunky, and not well thought out (dead ball balks anyone).

Major League Baseball had the same rule until 1958.  After taking enough home runs off the board, and punishing the offense for a defensive infraction, it was finally fixed.  FED doesn't keep this rule for any other reason but they think we officials can't handle calling balks properly without killing the play.  "Just make 'em all dead -- who cares how unfair it is."  I only sympathize with FED's safety concerns.  Mothers sue school systems for two-stitch wounds.

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31 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I think you liked it: 

 

I'm lost, Jimurray ... you've got me mixed up with other posters.  You were addressing Senor Azul, to post more from the PBUC, and I liked the question you posed to him.

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2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Yes, but the point is, it's not that simple in OBR and NCAA. Your players may know how to execute a simple live ball appeal but If the screw up, such as a ball  out of play or a balk, do your umpires know the wrinkles in OBR and NCAA.

Some do ... some don't.  We are talking about FED specifically.

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2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Just cut the crap, Jim.  The players know how to appeal.  I'm not going to re-state all of my points.  The officials know how to handle live appeals with FED.  FED dumbs down rules because they think we are incapable.  That's insulting.  End of discussion.

 

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On Tue Jan 17 2017 at 6:48 PM, ALStripes17 said:

 

 

Yeah... Everyone knows how to do the standard live ball appeal...You always have to go back to the rubber and step off, right?!?

 

 

Please...

 

Edited to fix autocorrect :)

 

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EXACTLY!!!

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I don't have a problem with the FED dead ball appeal, in fact I like it.  It can simplify things if coaches have knowledge of it. That said, many coaches don't know how to appeal a missed base. IIRC, there was once an "automatic" appeal in FED, in which if an umpire observed a missed base, he called time at the end of playing action and simply declared the offending runner out.  Maybe somebody can help me out with that; it was a long time ago and I didn't do much FED back then. I don't think that's right, but I do like the verbal appeal.

 

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1 minute ago, refump10 said:

I don't have a problem with the FED dead ball appeal, in fact I like it.  It can simplify things if coaches have knowledge of it. That said, many coaches don't know how to appeal a missed base. IIRC, there was once an "automatic" appeal in FED, in which if an umpire observed a missed base, he called time at the end of playing action and simply declared the offending runner out.  Maybe somebody can help me out with that; it was a long time ago and I didn't do much FED back then. I don't think that's right, but I do like the verbal appeal.

The "automatic" appeal to which you are referring pre-dates me, but my understanding is ... it was changed from a FED mandate to a State-Adopted mandate, and only the state of South Carolina was still using it when last I saw any discussion about it.  Clear example of FED realizing their folly in creating the rule in the first place.

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Quote

The "automatic" appeal to which you are referring pre-dates me, but my understanding is ... it was changed from a FED mandate to a State-Adopted mandate, and only the state of South Carolina was still using it when last I saw any discussion about it.  Clear example of FED realizing their folly in creating the rule in the first place.

Interesting. I remember it from the 80's.  I didn't like it then.  I felt like if the defense didn't have to go through the appeal process, at least they should have to pay attention enough to ask for it.

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On Mon Feb 06 2017 at 7:19 PM, refump10 said:

I don't have a problem with the FED dead ball appeal, in fact I like it.  It can simplify things if coaches have knowledge of it. That said, many coaches don't know how to appeal a missed base. IIRC, there was once an "automatic" appeal in FED, in which if an umpire observed a missed base, he called time at the end of playing action and simply declared the offending runner out.  Maybe somebody can help me out with that; it was a long time ago and I didn't do much FED back then. I don't think that's right, but I do like the verbal appeal.

 

You are correct. And it was around as late as the mid 90s if I remember correctly.

Stupid rule. Glad it's gone.

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On 1/17/2017 at 1:24 PM, maven said:

I've been known to say this. However, it's crucial not to kill it until all baserunners have completed their advance and play has ceased. Don't kill it with runners running just to hear a dead-ball appeal.

For the OP: the dead-ball appeal has been part of FED baseball for decades. Its rationale is to eliminate some of the nonsense that happens surrounding live-ball appeals. Don't let its unfamiliarity blind you to its merits!

Maven,

 

With all due respect, 'decades' might be a little too long. if I'm not mistaken the dead ball appeal made it into the Fed book around 1999-2001, after the Rules Committee had the good sense to get rid of the rule where the umpire called the missed base or left too soon call without an appeal by the defense, one of the worst rule changes in the history of Baseball on any level. I think it only lasted for four or five years before it disappeared. 

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58 minutes ago, jkumpire said:

... one of the worst rule changes in the history of Baseball on any level. I think it only lasted for four or five years before it disappeared. 

Couldn't agree more ... but what does that say for South Carolina?  It didn't quite disappear, jk ... it went from a FED mandate to state adoption, and South Carolina (in a 1-49 brash decision) voted to keep it (at least for a while).  No idea where it stands now.  LawUmp would know.

I can't say that the dead ball appeal has its "merits" when it sounds like it's a poor rule to replace a ridiculously poor rule.

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Maven,
 
With all due respect, 'decades' might be a little too long. if I'm not mistaken the dead ball appeal made it into the Fed book around 1999-2001, after the Rules Committee had the good sense to get rid of the rule where the umpire called the missed base or left too soon call without an appeal by the defense, one of the worst rule changes in the history of Baseball on any level. I think it only lasted for four or five years before it disappeared. 

2001 according to Steve the Ump's NFHS rules history.

FWIW, I use the plural too when saying "1.6 decades" :)



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On 1/17/2017 at 3:20 PM, BT_Blue said:

Some FED rules seem strange, clunky, and not well thought out (dead ball balks anyone). But this one I actually really like. So much craziness can happen when a team attempts a live ball appeal (such as throwing it away or even out of play). The dead ball appeal removes all that, and just makes it easier on everyone.

So help the defense and harm the offense by taking away the opportunity to royally screw it up?  Why?

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14 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

So help the defense and harm the offense by taking away the opportunity to royally screw it up?  Why?

Because it's a useless Kabuki theater. The point is the appeal, did the runner mess up or not. Just get on with it.

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6 minutes ago, scrounge said:

Because it's a useless Kabuki theater. The point is the appeal, did the runner mess up or not. Just get on with it.

It still absolves the defense of screwing up the appeal.  Could they mess up or not?  Make them attempt to carry our their part of the effort.

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1 minute ago, Rich Ives said:

It still absolves the defense of screwing up the appeal.  Could they mess up or not?  Make them attempt to carry our their part of the effort.

waste....of....time. It's like the 4 pitch IBB, so much sound and fury over a complete nothingburger that no one will miss once it's gone.

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32 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Some do ... some don't.  We are talking about FED specifically.

FED doesn't care if you mess up a live ball appeal because they allow dead ball apeals. So if you are not siding with FED who are you siding with?

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