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jwclubbie

3 man system question

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Went to my first Collegiate Clinic this past weekend for the 3 man system in Tennessee. I have a question on when the 1B umpire is the "QB". 1B umpire always decides to either go out or stay in on fly balls, so my question is if he decides to come in, why/or what is the purpose of the 3B umpire going out if 1B umpire stays in? Clearly the ball is not a trouble ball for the 1B Umpire if he comes in to go to B or further depending on where batter goees


Thanks and sorry if the question is stupid.

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Went to my first Collegiate Clinic this past weekend for the 3 man system in Tennessee. I have a question on when the 1B umpire is the "QB". 1B umpire always decides to either go out or stay in on fly balls, so my question is if he decides to come in, why/or what is the purpose of the 3B umpire going out if 1B umpire stays in? Clearly the ball is not a trouble ball for the 1B Umpire if he comes in to go to B or further depending on where batter goees

Thanks and sorry if the question is stupid.

Are you asking this in reference to when no one is on base? Bc in that scenario, both umpires don't come in at the same time... But neither have to go out. 1B umpire stays around 1B to observe the touch and still has responsibility for the catch on a ball in his area (for a can of corn). 3BU will come in in order to have BR to 2B.

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Also... Just because U1 doesn't go out, does not mean it is not a trouble ball.

Depending on if there are runners and where they are, the priority of who covers what changes. But the guy on the rail (be it U1 or U3) will only have to where F8 is positioned. The difference comes with U1 having F8 straight in/back and towards the RF line. U3 does not (unless U1 misreads it) have F8 straight in/bac. But only going towards the LF line.

If there is a runner on (say at first). The U1 would still have F8 straight in/back and towards the RF line. However, U3 would have trouble balls between F7 and F8. And should only cross the infield dirt if the ball is threatening the fence in that area.

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42 minutes ago, jwclubbie said:

Went to my first Collegiate Clinic this past weekend for the 3 man system in Tennessee. I have a question on when the 1B umpire is the "QB". 1B umpire always decides to either go out or stay in on fly balls, so my question is if he decides to come in, why/or what is the purpose of the 3B umpire going out if 1B umpire stays in? Clearly the ball is not a trouble ball for the 1B Umpire if he comes in to go to B or further depending on where batter goees


Thanks and sorry if the question is stupid.

If U1 doesn't go out, then he has judged the fly ball to either be routine, or that the ball is not in his coverage area.  U3 reads U1 and then will decide to either come in (routine) or go out (trouble).  The most important thing for U3 is to read U1 first, and then take the appropriate action.  As U3, you may judge a trouble ball in your coverage area, but what if U1 decided to go out?  If you fail to read him first, there's going to be 2 umpires in the outfield and nobody with the runner.

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6 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

If U1 doesn't go out, then he has judged the fly ball to either be routine, or that the ball is not in his coverage area.  U3 reads U1 and then will decide to either come in (routine) or go out (trouble).  The most important thing for U3 is to read U1 first, and then take the appropriate action.  As U3, you may judge a trouble ball in your coverage area, but what if U1 decided to go out?  If you fail to read him first, there's going to be 2 umpires in the outfield and nobody with the runner.

Had the opposite happen in a playoff game up here a few years back. Neither U1 or U3 read each other or the ball! Both come into the infield. Leaving the plate umpire to rule on a line drive threatening the LCF wall with converging diving players.

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1 minute ago, BT_Blue said:

Had the opposite happen in a playoff game up here a few years back. Neither U1 or U3 read each other or the ball! Both come into the infield. Leaving the plate umpire to rule on a line drive threatening the LCF wall with converging diving players.

U3 screwed the pooch on that one.

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5 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

U3 screwed the pooch on that one.

Indeed he did. Knew it when he did it too. Unfortunately, we dont get to work much (if any) 3man during regular season.

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46 minutes ago, BT_Blue said:

Had the opposite happen in a playoff game up here a few years back. Neither U1 or U3 read each other or the ball! Both come into the infield. Leaving the plate umpire to rule on a line drive threatening the LCF wall with converging diving players.

This is still U3 call - not the plate guys. Like gray hawk said - U3 screwed the pooch. The plate guy had other responsibilities.

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1 hour ago, jwclubbie said:

Went to my first Collegiate Clinic this past weekend for the 3 man system in Tennessee. I have a question on when the 1B umpire is the "QB". 1B umpire always decides to either go out or stay in on fly balls, so my question is if he decides to come in, why/or what is the purpose of the 3B umpire going out if 1B umpire stays in? Clearly the ball is not a trouble ball for the 1B Umpire if he comes in to go to B or further depending on where batter goees


Thanks and sorry if the question is stupid.

The outfield is split between both of them. If U1 deems a routine play, in his area, then he just steps up and covers the play at 1B (while still having responsibility for the ball) then he would rotate to the plate if needed later in the play. U3 still has to cover 2B - no matter if U1 goes out or stays in.

The only time I can think of U1 coming in and button hooking is taking the BR to 2B when the play started with R1 & R2 or bases loaded, with the plate guy staying home. 

Always think of which runners am I responsible for - don't think of it in terms of bases you need to cover. 3-Man is the most fun system to work.

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22 minutes ago, maineump said:

The outfield is split between both of them. If U1 deems a routine play, in his area, then he just steps up and covers the play at 1B (while still having responsibility for the ball) then he would rotate to the plate if needed later in the play. U3 still has to cover 2B - no matter if U1 goes out or stays in.

The only time I can think of U1 coming in and button hooking is taking the BR to 2B when the play started with R1 & R2 or bases loaded, with the plate guy staying home. 

Always think of which runners am I responsible for - don't think of it in terms of bases you need to cover. 3-Man is the most fun system to work.

I assume you mean when U3 doesn't go out.  Besides that, there are other situations, however:

R1 & R3 - clean base hit or routine fly ball with no catch.
R2 & R3 with 2 outs - U1 can reverse rotate by conference adoption.
U3 only - routine fly ball with no catch

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2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

I assume you mean when U3 doesn't go out.  Besides that, there are other situations, however:

R1 & R3 - clean base hit or routine fly ball with no catch.
R2 & R3 with 2 outs - U1 can reverse rotate by conference adoption.
U3 only - routine fly ball with no catch

Yes. Like you said - depends on the conference - but U1 has to think about taking BR into 2B. That's why I said to think of your RUNNER responsibilities not so much the bases, because I knew I would forget a couple of the situations. :) 

We should always key off what the plate guy is going to do, by signals from him and communicate it between the base guys, so everyone is on the same page.

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5 minutes ago, maineump said:

Yes. Like you said - depends on the conference - but U1 has to think about taking BR into 2B. That's why I said to think of your RUNNER responsibilities not so much the bases, because I knew I would forget a couple of the situations. :) 

We should always key off what the plate guy is going to do, by signals from him and communicate it between the base guys, so everyone is on the same page.

A D1 umpire said to think of it as who you are "man to man" with.  As U1 in A, you are almost always man to man with the BR, but there are a few times where you also have secondary plays on R1 at second base.

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1 minute ago, grayhawk said:

A D1 umpire said to think of it as who you are "man to man" with.  As U1 in A, you are almost always man to man with the BR, but there are a few times where you also have secondary plays on R1 at second base.

That is a good way to put it. I was told that when I worked the Cape League this summer, and it clicked for me. Then to really make you think, U3 also has plays at 1B at times. No one can just think of the bases, they need to think of the runners and where your partners are.

That is why the 3-man is so much fun - you are always moving and you have to think fast on your feet.

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On 11/7/2016 at 2:01 PM, ALStripes17 said:

Are you asking this in reference to when no one is on base? Bc in that scenario, both umpires don't come in at the same time... But neither have to go out. 1B umpire stays around 1B to observe the touch and still has responsibility for the catch on a ball in his area (for a can of corn). 3BU will come in in order to have BR to 2B.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Actually the 1stbase umpire should come inside to the cutout , just in case U3 decides to go late, then U1 will take BR into 2nd, and or 3rd. If U3 stays in, U1 can then ( keeping his shoulders to the ball ) turn and go across the foulline and head home ( when BR commits to 3rd).. it's taught int he MiLB .. it s really good thing to start doing.. just incase that 1 in 100 play where U3 decides to go out late.

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On 11/7/2016 at 3:55 PM, grayhawk said:

I assume you mean when U3 doesn't go out.  Besides that, there are other situations, however:

R1 & R3 - clean base hit or routine fly ball with no catch.
R2 & R3 with 2 outs - U1 can reverse rotate by conference adoption.
U3 only - routine fly ball with no catch

This is not a CCA approved Mechanic

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A good way to remember how this works - once an umpire goes out, then the whole things turns into a 2-man system.

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12 hours ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

Actually the 1stbase umpire should come inside to the cutout , just in case U3 decides to go late, then U1 will take BR into 2nd, and or 3rd. If U3 stays in, U1 can then ( keeping his shoulders to the ball ) turn and go across the foulline and head home ( when BR commits to 3rd).. it's taught int he MiLB .. it s really good thing to start doing.. just incase that 1 in 100 play where U3 decides to go out late.

This is a good habit - taking a good look at your partner and listening for your partner are key here. Hand signals and good verbal communication are keys to the 3-man system.

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On 11/7/2016 at 1:55 PM, grayhawk said:

I assume you mean when U3 doesn't go out.  Besides that, there are other situations, however:

R1 & R3 - clean base hit or routine fly ball with no catch. (Pages 145, 148, 149)
R2 & R3 with 2 outs - U1 can reverse rotate by conference adoption. (Page 173)
U3 only - routine fly ball with no catch (Page 177)

 

20 hours ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

This is not a CCA approved Mechanic

Not sure which one you are referring to, but it's all straight from the CCA manual.  See above for the page numbers.

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Incidentally, I had a good reverse rotation play in a game on Monday.  I was U1 with R1 and R2.  Base hit to center field and F8 comes up firing to home.  The throw is late and F2 throws to second to get the BR advancing.  I went inside, watched the BR's touch at first and read his advance on the throw to the plate.  I was on the 1B side of the 2B cutout (basically the same position as a steal when starting in B) for a great look at the tag on the BR sliding to the outside of the base.

I had pre-pitched where I was going, but was really prepared because I was late going in on a previous play with R1 and R2 with a routine fly ball hit to left that was dropped.  R1 went halfway and the BR stopped short of passing him but since I went in late, I didn't have a great angle on the potential passing (it wasn't close, but what if it had been), and would have been chasing the BR if he ended up advancing to second (which he didn't).

Nailed one, and hosed one.  Glad the one I hosed didn't blow up.

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On 11/10/2016 at 4:39 PM, grayhawk said:

 

Not sure which one you are referring to, but it's all straight from the CCA manual.  See above for the page numbers.

R2 & R3. ... I stand corrected .. My 2 D1 coordinators don't want us too. My bad.

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4 hours ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

R2 & R3. ... I stand corrected .. My 2 D1 coordinators don't want us too. My bad.

@Haid D' Salaami, what are your thoughts on the pros and cons of reverse rotating in this situation?  I also find it strange that CCA doesn't allow conferences to adopt a reverse rotation with R2 only and 2 outs.  Seems like a nearly identical scenario since R3 should score easily when it's R2 and R3 with 2 outs.

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U1 doesn't go out doesn't mean it's not trouble.

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5 hours ago, grayhawk said:

@Haid D' Salaami, what are your thoughts on the pros and cons of reverse rotating in this situation?  I also find it strange that CCA doesn't allow conferences to adopt a reverse rotation with R2 only and 2 outs.  Seems like a nearly identical scenario since R3 should score easily when it's R2 and R3 with 2 outs.

Pros'... It puts a umpire at Home, 3rd and 2nd... it keeps R2 boxed in, just in case that 1 in 100 play where he gets about 3/4's of the way home and decide to turn around and head back towards 3rd, we now have a umpire at 3rd.

Con's.. you have to read this as a true double, if not the 2 base umpires can get confused as to who's call on the BR and sandwich in the middle of the infield and possibility have 2 calls at 2nd base. The key is Read( your partner and the fielders), Pause (to see if the other umpire is gonna go out), and react.. then see what the BR is going to do. and mostly ( i communicate verbally pretty loud) to my partner.. "Slide, Slide, I'm coming in"  just so he knows I am now responsible for BR at 1st and 2nd. 

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In addition to what Haid says, if the ball is hit to RF I'm staying on the line so I don't interfere with the throw.  If it's hit to CF or LF, U3 busts it into the coaches box to get out of the way.  U1 takes BR at 1st and 2nd.

As always, we pregame this specifically just so we can anticipate this during the game.

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1 minute ago, kanedog said:

In addition to what Haid says, if the ball is hit to RF I'm staying on the line so I don't interfere with the throw.  If it's hit to CF or LF, U3 busts it into the coaches box to get out of the way.  U1 takes BR at 1st and 2nd.

As always, we pregame this specifically just so we can anticipate this during the game.

I just got so confused by what you said...

1. Do you mean with no runners on base?

2. we were talking about R2 & R3

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