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Guest Ernie Barnum

Award of Bases

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Guest Ernie Barnum

Bases are loaded. After a pitch, the catcher's throw back to the  pitcher deflects off the batter's helmet while he is in the box and goes out of play.  What is the correct award of bases?  Thanks. Ernie

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21 minutes ago, Guest Ernie Barnum said:

Bases are loaded. After a pitch, the catcher's throw back to the  pitcher deflects off the batter's helmet while he is in the box and goes out of play.  What is the correct award of bases?  Thanks. Ernie

Two.                  .

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43 minutes ago, maineump said:

Unintentional - dead ball no advance

Ummm... most all balls that are thrown out of play go out of play unintentionally.

 

Runners get 2 bases from time of throw

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Ummm... most all balls that are thrown out of play go out of play unintentionally.

 

Runners get 2 bases from time of throw

There is a provision in some codes that if a batter is out of the batter's box and an F2's throw back to the pitcher hits the batter in some way, then the ball is dead..

This is not in that caveat but I imagine that is the realm from where maineump is confused.

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1.  Batter is in the box (as in the OP):  The ball is live and in play.  That means this is a throw into DBT so it's two bases from the time of the throw (as others have stated).

2.  Batter is out of the box, does not intentionally interfere, AND no runner is trying to advance:  The umpire should immediately call time, which means there are no outs and no awards.

3.  Batter is out of the box, DOES intentionally interfere, OR any runner is trying to advance:  The ball is dead and the batter is out.  Runner(s) return.

Same in all codes.

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25 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

1.  Batter is in the box (as in the OP):  The ball is live and in play.  That means this is a throw into DBT so it's two bases from the time of the throw (as others have stated).

2.  Batter is out of the box, does not intentionally interfere, AND no runner is trying to advance:  The umpire should immediately call time, which means there are no outs and no awards.

3.  Batter is out of the box, DOES intentionally interfere, OR any runner is trying to advance:  The ball is dead and the batter is out.  Runner(s) return.

Same in all codes.

All correct but if the batter is out of the box in the proper direction because he became a runner on ball four, absent intent, the ball is live and in play. There was a CWS play however which was not called that way a few years ago.

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All correct but if the batter is out of the box in the proper direction because he became a runner on ball four, absent intent, the ball is live and in play. There was a CWS play however which was not called that way a few years ago.

In FED, intent doesn't matter on the ball 4 scenario. 7.3.5 Situation I

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25 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

In FED, intent doesn't matter on the ball 4 scenario. 7.3.5 Situation I

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In 7.3.5 Situation I, the batter threw his bat which contacted the throw back to the pitcher.  I don't equate that with a batter who is running to first and getting hit with the throw back to the pitcher.

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In 7.3.5 Situation I, the batter threw his bat which contacted the throw back to the pitcher.  I don't equate that with a batter who is running to first and getting hit with the throw back to the pitcher.

The CB cite still wasn't intentional INT. That was the premise of my reply.

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44 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

The CB cite still wasn't intentional INT. That was the premise of my reply.

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I don't see that case play backing a premise that intent isn't required on ball 4.  There's a huge difference between a batter drawing a base on balls and getting hit with F2's return throw to F1 while merely advancing to first, and one who advances to first, but stops to throw his bat towards the third base dugout and the bat getting hit by the return throw to F1.

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3 hours ago, grayhawk said:

1.  Batter is in the box (as in the OP):  The ball is live and in play.  That means this is a throw into DBT so it's two bases from the time of the throw (as others have stated).

2.  Batter is out of the box, does not intentionally interfere, AND no runner is trying to advance:  The umpire should immediately call time, which means there are no outs and no awards.

3.  Batter is out of the box, DOES intentionally interfere, OR any runner is trying to advance:  The ball is dead and the batter is out.  Runner(s) return.

Same in all codes.

Just curious what the reasoning is in making it different whether the batter is in the box or not?  The ball is live for runners to advance on an overthrow back to F2 whether the batter is in the box or not.  So why make it a dead ball no advance if he's out of the box?  

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3 minutes ago, umpire_scott said:

Just curious what the reasoning is in making it different whether the batter is in the box or not?  The ball is live for runners to advance on an overthrow back to F2 whether the batter is in the box or not.  So why make it a dead ball no advance if he's out of the box?  

An overthrow back to F1 is just an errant throw.  When a batter is in the batter's box, there is no reason that F2 shouldn't have a clear lane to throw back to F1.  If, while F2 is making his throw, the batter steps out of the box into the throw (unintentionally), then it makes no sense to allow runners to advance on the deflection.

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2 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

An overthrow back to F1 is just an errant throw.  When a batter is in the batter's box, there is no reason that F2 shouldn't have a clear lane to throw back to F1.  If, while F2 is making his throw, the batter steps out of the box into the throw (unintentionally), then it makes no sense to allow runners to advance on the deflection.

Okay that makes sense.  I was envisioning a situation where he was already out of the box and the catcher's errant throw hit him.  For example a WP and batter vacates the box and the catcher not paying attention to where he is hits his helmet.  But It does make sense to account for the batter starting in the box and then moving during the throw.

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42 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

An overthrow back to F1 is just an errant throw.  When a batter is in the batter's box, there is no reason that F2 shouldn't have a clear lane to throw back to F1.  If, while F2 is making his throw, the batter steps out of the box into the throw (unintentionally), then it makes no sense to allow runners to advance on the deflection.

Rule  cite please.

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24 minutes ago, UMP45 said:

Rule  cite please.

NCAA 7-11f:  

A.R. 3 If the batter does nothing intentional and no runners are attempting to advance, and the catcher’s return throw to the pitcher hits the batter or his bat while he is legally out of the batter’s box, it is not interference.The ball is immediately dead and all runners return without penalty.

According to the BRD, in Fed there is no provision with the recommendation to treat as in NCAA.  For OBR, it's a point not covered, but there's a PBUC cite that is functionally the same as NCAA:

 OFF INTERP 296-288: PBUC: If the batter interferes with the catcher’s return toss to the pitcher by stepping out of the batter’s box, it is not interference unless it is intentional or runners are attempting to advance, in which case the batter is out. PENALTY: For unintended interference: The ball is dead, and runners may not advance. {7.14}

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