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BI ruling

kylehutson

By kylehutson
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kylehutson

kylehutson

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NFHS rules. R3, no outs.

R3 takes a big but not ridiculous secondary lead on a swinging strike. F2 attempts a throw to 3B to pick off a retreating R3. The batter inadvertently steps backwards into the throw and the ball bounces off his helmet. In my judgment, R3 is *likely* safely back to 3B, but if the throw and catch were ideal, it's possible he could have been put out. I've got BI since he made a movement which interfered. Is R3 sent back to 3rd?

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kylehutson
kylehutson

Meant to do that, @ElkOil. How's this: +---------+ Yes +------------+ | 2 outs? +------>+ Batter out | +---+-----+ +------------+ | No +---+-----------+ Yes +------------+ Yes +

maven
maven

The option where the batter interferes on strike 3 but nobody is out for it is merely notional, with no real world application. It's a figment of FED's imagination. If the batter hindered F2, the

noumpere
noumpere

If that chart helps you or anyone else, then good.  Or, if you are using it to program an umpire robot, I can see it.   But for me, that just makes it more complex that the rule itself.  And

kylehutson

kylehutson

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Thanks @noumpere - that's the reference I was looking for...

PENALTY: When there are two outs, the batter is out. When there are not two outs and the runner is advancing to home plate, if the runner is tagged out, the ball remains live and interfer­ence is ignored. Otherwise, the ball is dead and the runner is called out. When an attempt to put out a runner at any other base is unsuccessful, the batter is out and all runners must return to bases occupied at the time of the pitch. If the pitch is a third strike and in the umpire's judgment interference prevents a possible ­double play (additional outs), two may be ruled out (8-4-2g).

So in my case:

  • 2 outs, nope.
  • Runner advancing to home, nope.
  • Runner tagged out, nope.

Ergo: R3 is out, batter stays in with the strike he just missed added to the count.

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ElkOil

ElkOil

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35 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

Thanks @noumpere - that's the reference I was looking for...

PENALTY: When there are two outs, the batter is out. When there are not two outs and the runner is advancing to home plate, if the runner is tagged out, the ball remains live and interfer­ence is ignored. Otherwise, the ball is dead and the runner is called out. When an attempt to put out a runner at any other base is unsuccessful, the batter is out and all runners must return to bases occupied at the time of the pitch. If the pitch is a third strike and in the umpire's judgment interference prevents a possible ­double play (additional outs), two may be ruled out (8-4-2g).

So in my case:

  • 2 outs, nope.
  • Runner advancing to home, nope.
  • Runner tagged out, nope.

Ergo: R3 is out, batter stays in with the strike he just missed added to the count.

R3 would be out if he was advancing to home. Since, as you said, he wasn't, bang out the batter and send R3 back.

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kylehutson

kylehutson

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Dangit - this why I always have a hard time with this one - the wording on this one is tough to follow. Is my flowchart here accurate?

  


+---------+  Yes  +------------+
| 2 outs? +------>+ Batter out |
+---+-----+       +------------+
    | No
+---+-----------+  Yes  +------------+  Yes  +-------------+
| R3 Advancing? +------>+ R3 tagged? +------>+ INT ignored |
+---+-----------+       +----------+-+       +-------------+
    | No                           | No
+---+--------------------+  +------+-----+
| Runner is out on play? |  | Runner out |
+--+----------------+----+  +------------+
   | Yes            | No
+--+----------+  +--+--------+
| INT ignored |  | Strike 3? |
+-------------+  +--+--------+
                    | Yes
+-------------------+----+
| Double play prevented? |
| (Umpire judgment)      |
+--+---------------+-----+
   | Yes           | No
+--+---------+  +--+--------------------------+
| Batter out |  | Batter out                  |
| Runner out |  | All runners returned to TOP |
+------------+  +-----------------------------+

 

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kylehutson

kylehutson

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Meant to do that, @ElkOil. How's this: 

+---------+  Yes  +------------+
| 2 outs? +------>+ Batter out |
+---+-----+       +------------+
    | No
+---+-----------+  Yes  +------------+  Yes  +-------------+
| R3 Advancing? +------>+ R3 tagged? +------>+ INT ignored |
+---+-----------+       +----------+-+       +-------------+
    | No                           | No
+---+--------------------+  +------+-----+
| Runner is out on play? |  | Runner out |
+--+----------------+----+  +------------+
   | Yes            | No
+--+----------+  +--+--------+ No
| INT ignored |  | Strike 3? +----+
+-------------+  +--+--------+    |
                    | Yes         |
+-------------------+----+        |
| Double play prevented? |        |
| (Umpire judgment)      |        |
+--+---------------+-----+        |
   | Yes           | No           |
+--+---------+  +--+--------------+-----------+
| Batter out |  | Batter out                  |
| Runner out |  | All runners returned to TOP |
+------------+  +-----------------------------+

 

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ElkOil

ElkOil

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4 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

Meant to do that, @ElkOil. How's this: 


+---------+  Yes  +------------+
| 2 outs? +------>+ Batter out |
+---+-----+       +------------+
    | No
+---+-----------+  Yes  +------------+  Yes  +-------------+
| R3 Advancing? +------>+ R3 tagged? +------>+ INT ignored |
+---+-----------+       +----------+-+       +-------------+
    | No                           | No
+---+--------------------+  +------+-----+
| Runner is out on play? |  | Runner out |
+--+----------------+----+  +------------+
   | Yes            | No
+--+----------+  +--+--------+ No
| INT ignored |  | Strike 3? +----+
+-------------+  +--+--------+    |
                    | Yes         |
+-------------------+----+        |
| Double play prevented? |        |
| (Umpire judgment)      |        |
+--+---------------+-----+        |
   | Yes           | No           |
+--+---------+  +--+--------------+-----------+
| Batter out |  | Batter out                  |
| Runner out |  | All runners returned to TOP |
+------------+  +-----------------------------+

 

That looks right to me. You wouldn't think this rule would be this complex, but there it is.

Awesome ASCII work, by the way.

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kylehutson

kylehutson

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Realizing that some of those are just special cases, I think I've distilled it further: 

+---------+  Yes  +------------+
| 2 outs? +-------+ Batter out |
+---+-----+       +------------+
    | No
+---+--------------------+
| Runner is out on play? |
+--+----------------+----+
   | Yes            | No
+--+----------+  +--+--------+ No
| INT ignored |  | Strike 3? +-----+
| Runner out  |  +--+--------+     |
+-------------+     |              |
                Yes |        +-----+---------+  Yes
+-------------------+----+   | R3 Advancing? +------+
| Double play prevented? |   +--+------------+      |
| (Umpire judgment)      |      | No                |
+--+---------------+-----+      |                   |
   | Yes           | No         |                   |
+--+---------+  +--+------------+-------------+  +--+---------------+
| Batter out |  | Batter out                  |  | R3 is out        |
| Runner out |  | All runners returned to TOP |  | Batter stays     |
+------------+  +-----------------------------+  +------------------+

 

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maven

maven

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The option where the batter interferes on strike 3 but nobody is out for it is merely notional, with no real world application. It's a figment of FED's imagination.

If the batter hindered F2, then somebody has to be called out for the INT. If there's no possibility of F2 retiring a runner, then there's no hindrance possible, and there's no reason to return runners.

The only qualification I have to the flowchart (which somehow reminds me of the mainframe/terminal computer I used in school in 1976) is that in row 2, where it says "Runner is out on play?" that should really say, "F2's first throw retires a runner?" We don't allow rundowns, for instance, after batter INT.

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noumpere

noumpere

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If that chart helps you or anyone else, then good.  Or, if you are using it to program an umpire robot, I can see it.

 

But for me, that just makes it more complex that the rule itself.  And, that's not a dig -- it just shows that different people learn / remember in different ways.

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noumpere

noumpere

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51 minutes ago, indianaumpire15 said:

Are there any differences between FED rulings in these situations and NCAA/OBR?

Yes.  In FED, with two outs, the batter is always out.  It doesn't matter if the BI was with a stealing R1, or a stealing R3, or a non-stealing R3, or whether the throw (if any) retired a runner ..

In OBR / NCAA, the batter is out with two outs only if the throw does not retire a runner. 

So, the top 2 decision boxes in the chart are reversed

And, the "double play prevented" ruling is different -- we'll always (?) get a double play in OBR/NCAA (if there was really interference)

(I think)

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kylehutson

kylehutson

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On 3/26/2016 at 7:16 AM, noumpere said:

If that chart helps you or anyone else, then good.  Or, if you are using it to program an umpire robot, I can see it.

But for me, that just makes it more complex that the rule itself.  And, that's not a dig -- it just shows that different people learn / remember in different ways.

Funny you should mention that. I'm a sysadmin in my job that pays the bills. Logic and conditionals are how I spend my life. Therefore this seems like the most reasonable way to represent what the rule is saying (well, at least that other people could follow, also).

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ElkOil

ElkOil

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On 3/25/2016 at 5:18 PM, calablue said:

So, if I follow this right;  w/less than 2 outs, if it's strike 3, the batter is out on strikes and umpire judgment on whether R3 is out due to batter INT?

No. The judgement is whether or not INT occurred. Once it's determined that it has, the outs are assigned by rule and is purely logical based on the situation, as shown in Kyle's chart. 

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Ironhead17

Ironhead17

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Did the batter step out of the box or does it matter? I've had them turn in the box and get hit in the back of the head. When the batter is moving to react to F2 sliding to the rear to make an attempt on R3 is he "protected from BI" if he stays in the box and the BI is not intentional?

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noumpere

noumpere

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58 minutes ago, Ironhead17 said:

Did the batter step out of the box or does it matter? I've had them turn in the box and get hit in the back of the head. When the batter is moving to react to F2 sliding to the rear to make an attempt on R3 is he "protected from BI" if he stays in the box an the BI is not intentional?

The box is not a sanctuary.

Other than completing a normal swing, the batter needs to not move to allow the catcher to make a play. (that might be a bit of an overstatement, but not much)

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maven

maven

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12 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Other than completing a normal swing, the batter needs to not move to allow the catcher to make a play. (that might be a bit of an overstatement, but not much)

It doesn't seem to be an overstatement: it seems to be the converse of what is prohibited, namely "make any other motion that hinders the catcher's play at home plate."

1 hour ago, Ironhead17 said:

I've had them turn in the box and get hit in the back of the head.

If the turning is unrelated to a normal swing, that's batter INT.

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