Appeal Play

[UmpTTS43]

The NCAA just released an interp that states once a following runner has been called out on appeal, the force is removed on any preceding runner and it now becomes a time play.

What if a following runner was simply forced out? Is the force removed for appeal purposes?

Yes the force is removed on preceding runners.

[UmpJM]

UMPTT,

Got a link or a cite reference or something? Hadn't seen that.

JM

[noumpere]

The NCAA just released an interp that states once a following runner has been called out on appeal, the force is removed on any preceding runner and it now becomes a time play.

What if a following runner was simply forced out? Is the force removed for appeal purposes?

NCAA rules - If the following runner is put out in a LIVE ball situation, it does NOT remove the force on a preceedign runner who is called out for missing a base. If the following runner is put out in a DEAD ball situation it does remove the force no matter when the preceeding runner missed the base.

Its in the recent NCAA interpretations or letter or something on the NCAA portal on Arbitersports

[UmpTTS43]

the interp was sent out by Paronto.

JM,

I'll email it to you tonight.

Ill post it this evening as well.

[UmpJM]

UMPTT,

Thanks. Sounds like it's entirely consistent with the BRD interp.

JM

[UmpTTS43]

These were the interps coming from the NCAA on March 1.

4. Bases loaded, 1-out, batter hits a ball that barely clears the outfield fence. R1, hesitates between first and second bases to make sure the ball will not be caught. As he hesitates, the batter passes R1. The umpire correctly calls the batter out for passing R1 (second out). R1 then continues around the bases but misses second base and does not attempt to return to the base to touch it. After a new ball is put into play, the defense then appeals R1’s missing of second base (third out). How many runs are scored?

a. Consider in NCAA, the force is removed when B/R passes R1. 8-5j, Exception, “No runner can be forced out if the runner who follows in the batting order is put out first.†(unless the runner is put out during live action, it does not remove the force on any runners who might be subsequently declared out for a running infraction. An example is when a leading runner has been forced to advance at the time he misses a base, the appeal of the base is a “force out.†NCAA: When the missed base was after the out made on the trailing runner, the force is removed and this play becomes a “time†play.

b. OBR/NFHS-the force is removed as soon as the B/R passes R1 regardless if the ball is “live†or “deadâ€

5. Play: Bases loaded, one out. The batter triples. R1 missed second and the batter-runner missed first. The defense successfully appeals against the batter-runner, then R1. The appeal out of the batter-runner removes the force against R1. R1’s appealed out (third out) is not a force out; R2 and R3’s runs count. If the defense had appealed R1's' missing second as the first appeal and then the batter-runner’s missing of first, no runs would have scored since the third out was for the batter-runner not attaining first base.

[noumpere]

UMPTT,

Thanks. Sounds like it's entirely consistent with the BRD interp.

JM

What does BRD say the differences are because I would have the same ruling on the NCAA plays in all codes.

[SinCityBlue]

Taken from Referee's Umpire Quiz 2011. Use Fed rules:

With the bases loaded and one out, B5 hits a ground ball that takes F4 deep into the hole in shallow right field. F4's only play is at first base, where B5 is retired. On the play, both R2 and R3 score. The defense then successfully appeals that R2 missed third base. Does R3's run score?

R3's run scores if the umpire judges him to have crossed the plate before R2 rounds third base. Obviously as umpires we are taught to keep our heads on a swivel and look at all runners touching bases. Of course, each umpire should know their assignments and U1's responsibility is tagups and touched bases, especially when he's got bases loaded. After the out from F4, that makes two outs, any plays afterwards are subsequent plays from a fielder and become timing plays, therefore if in the umpires judgement the R3 crossed the plate before R2 missed third, then the run scores, if not, then there is no score...this is a judgement call.

[yawetag]

R3's run scores if the umpire judges him to have crossed the plate before R2 rounds third base. Obviously as umpires we are taught to keep our heads on a swivel and look at all runners touching bases. Of course, each umpire should know their assignments and U1's responsibility is tagups and touched bases, especially when he's got bases loaded. After the out from F4, that makes two outs, any plays afterwards are subsequent plays from a fielder and become timing plays, therefore if in the umpires judgement the R3 crossed the plate before R2 missed third, then the run scores, if not, then there is no score...this is a judgement call.

I have to disagree. To determine if a preceding run scores on an appeal of a missed base during a live ball, you have two questions:

1) Was the third out a force play or one where BR missed first base? If so, the run doesn't score.

2) If not, did the run score before the appeal was initiated? If so, the run scores; if not, no run.

The basic premise of the question is whether the appeal on R2 missing 3B is a force play or not. In Referee's opinion (and mine, after reading the play), R2's force was removed when BR was put out before reaching 1B. Therefore, the appeal was not on a force play AND occurred after R3 scored, so the run counts.

[SinCityBlue]

R3's run scores if the umpire judges him to have crossed the plate before R2 rounds third base. Obviously as umpires we are taught to keep our heads on a swivel and look at all runners touching bases. Of course, each umpire should know their assignments and U1's responsibility is tagups and touched bases, especially when he's got bases loaded. After the out from F4, that makes two outs, any plays afterwards are subsequent plays from a fielder and become timing plays, therefore if in the umpires judgement the R3 crossed the plate before R2 missed third, then the run scores, if not, then there is no score...this is a judgement call.

I have to disagree. To determine if a preceding run scores on an appeal of a missed base during a live ball, you have two questions:

1) Was the third out a force play or one where BR missed first base? If so, the run doesn't score.

2) If not, did the run score before the appeal was initiated? If so, the run scores; if not, no run.

The basic premise of the question is whether the appeal on R2 missing 3B is a force play or not. In Referee's opinion (and mine, after reading the play), R2's force was removed when BR was put out before reaching 1B. Therefore, the appeal was not on a force play AND occurred after R3 scored, so the run counts.

I'm curious as to what you mean by, "Did the run score before the appeal was initiated? If so, the run scores, if not, no run."

Appeals are made after plays are finished and time is called, requested by the defensive of course, so the runner scoring before the appeal makes no difference as far as before or after the appeal.

Based on the scenario, the bases were loaded, thus the runner from third is forced to home. U1 has responsibility to make sure the runner touches the plate, okay so he does and now there are two outs because of the play at first; Anything after that, then becomes a "SUBSEQUENT PLAY", unless there is a force. The force was removed when the runner rounded third base going for home, him missing 3rd base just means he's out. But count the preceeding run, definitely.

[yawetag]

Appeals are made after plays are finished and time is called

Incorrect. Not all appeals (in Fed) are dead-ball appeals.

the runner scoring before the appeal makes no difference as far as before or after the appeal.

Unless the appeal is the third out on a runner forced to a base or a batter-runner missing 1B, any runs that scored before the appeal was made counts (unless the runner was following the appealed runner). Dead ball or live ball, it doesn't matter.

Fed rules. R1 with two outs, stealing on the pitch. Batter hits a triple to right field, missing 2B just before R1 touches home. After action is complete, defense calls time and initiates a dead-ball appeal on BR missing 2B. The umpire upholds the appeal. Does the run score?

Yes. The run scored before the appeal was made. (8-2-6k and the fact there's no exceptions matching the situation in 9-1-1)

[SinCityBlue]

Appeals are made after plays are finished and time is called

Incorrect. Not all appeals (in Fed) are dead-ball appeals.

the runner scoring before the appeal makes no difference as far as before or after the appeal.

Unless the appeal is the third out on a runner forced to a base or a batter-runner missing 1B, any runs that scored before the appeal was made counts (unless the runner was following the appealed runner). Dead ball or live ball, it doesn't matter.

Fed rules. R1 with two outs, stealing on the pitch. Batter hits a triple to right field, missing 2B just before R1 touches home. After action is complete, defense calls time and initiates a dead-ball appeal on BR missing 2B. The umpire upholds the appeal. Does the run score?

Yes. The run scored before the appeal was made. (8-2-6k and the fact there's no exceptions matching the situation in 9-1-1)

I meant, everything has to finish before the defense can appeal..they can't appeal while play is happening, they can scream and shout that the runner missed the bag, but the ball is still live. Once all plays are over, the defense can then properly appeal the play.

As far as the run counting, i think we all agree on that.

[yawetag]

I meant, everything has to finish before the defense can appeal..they can't appeal while play is happening, they can scream and shout that the runner missed the bag, but the ball is still live. Once all plays are over, the defense can then properly appeal the play.

Also incorrect. Live ball appeals are allowed in Fed. As long as the fielder is not making an active attempt at returning to the base, a fielder with the ball can touch the base and appeal the miss, whether other action has stopped or not.

[SinCityBlue]

I meant, everything has to finish before the defense can appeal..they can't appeal while play is happening, they can scream and shout that the runner missed the bag, but the ball is still live. Once all plays are over, the defense can then properly appeal the play.

Also incorrect. Live ball appeals are allowed in Fed. As long as the fielder is not making an active attempt at returning to the base, a fielder with the ball can touch the base and appeal the miss, whether other action has stopped or not.

LOL, he's like, ALSO INCORRECT!

You're correct, a fielder must, with a live ball, tag the runner or base in question and communicate to the umpire what the infraction was and which runner committed the infraction.

Although,When a running infraction occurs and then all playing action becomes relaxed, any live ball appeal must occur before the next pitch, play, or attempted play. An appeal itself does not count as an attempted play for the purposes of subsequent appeals.Way to be heads up.

[Rich Ives]

I meant, everything has to finish before the defense can appeal..they can't appeal while play is happening, they can scream and shout that the runner missed the bag, but the ball is still live. Once all plays are over, the defense can then properly appeal the play.

As far as the run counting, i think we all agree on that.

I guess you can't double a runner off then either.