Bizarre situation

[Guest Steve]

A fly ball is hit between the pitcher and the home plate.  When the ball touch the ground, in fair territory, it spin back toward the plate.  But before reaching the plate, the ball is stopped by the bat that was laying there, in fait territory (the batter had let go of the bat after he hit the ball) so is the ball now.   Is it an out?

[grayhawk]

A fly ball is hit between the pitcher and the home plate.  When the ball touch the ground, in fair territory, it spin back toward the plate.  But before reaching the plate, the ball is stopped by the bat that was laying there, in fait territory (the batter had let go of the bat after he hit the ball) so is the ball now.   Is it an out?

It's a fair ball and play on in all codes.

[Thunderheads]

no, it's not an out.  play on

why would it be an out?

[BigUmpire]

I believe that the dropped bat is now part of the playing field UNLESS it was intentional placed there by the BR.

LIVE-FAIR BALL!

[grayhawk]

I believe that the dropped bat is now part of the playing field UNLESS it was intentional placed there by the BR.

LIVE-FAIR BALL!

It's interesting that there appears to be a difference between Fed and NCAA, and OBR with respect to fair/foul when a batted ball touches a bat and then continues on into foul territory between home and third or home and first.

Fed says the ball is fair if, while over fair territory, it "touches the person of an umpire or player, their clothing or equipment."

NCAA says the ball is fair if it "First touches a player, umpire or any piece of equipment while over fair territory."

OBR says the ball is fair if, while over fair territory, it "touches the person of an umpire or player..."  Nothing about equipment.

So it would seem that in Fed and NCAA, the instant the ball touches the bat, it's a fair ball, while in OBR we need to wait to see if it's touched by a player, or settles in fair territory to point it fair.

Thoughts?

 

[noumpere]

It's interesting that there appears to be a difference between Fed and NCAA, and OBR with respect to fair/foul when a batted ball touches a bat and then continues on into foul territory between home and third or home and first.

Fed says the ball is fair if, while over fair territory, it "touches the person of an umpire or player, their clothing or equipment."

NCAA says the ball is fair if it "First touches a player, umpire or any piece of equipment while over fair territory."

OBR says the ball is fair if, while over fair territory, it "touches the person of an umpire or player..."  Nothing about equipment.

So it would seem that in Fed and NCAA, the instant the ball touches the bat, it's a fair ball, while in OBR we need to wait to see if it's touched by a player, or settles in fair territory to point it fair.

Thoughts?

 

I'd say you're wrong for FED (see below), but now right for OBR (and your first answer for OBR was wrong).

 

For NCAA, the wording in Rule 7-6 (Batting; Fair Ball) is different from what you have above (from Rule 2 - Definitions).  The wording in Rule 7-6 DOES NOT include "equipment."  I think it's the same as OBR.

 

NCAA:

 

d. While on or over fair ground, touches an umpire or player; or

 

FED:

2.16.1 SITUATION D: B1's bunt rolls up the first-base line where it hits B1's bat that was lying on the

ground in fair territory. The ball deflects into foul territory. Is the ball fair or foul? RULING: The ball is

foul, provided the bat was not placed there intentionally. The bat is considered to be part of the playing

field. (2-5-1, 2-8-1, 8-4-1d)

Edited August 28, 2015 by noumpere

[noumpere]

 

A fly ball is hit between the pitcher and the home plate.  When the ball touch the ground, in fair territory, it spin back toward the plate.  But before reaching the plate, the ball is stopped by the bat that was laying there, in fait territory (the batter had let go of the bat after he hit the ball) so is the ball now.   Is it an out?

It's not an out.

 

It's nothing, yet.  The ball will become fair or foul depending on what happens next (if it comes to rest in fair territory, or is touched in fair territory, it's fair).

 

A batted ball hitting a bat (or helmet) in foul territory is immediately foul.

[grayhawk]

I'd say you're wrong for FED (see below), but now right for OBR (and your first answer for OBR was wrong).

 

FED:

2.16.1 SITUATION D: B1's bunt rolls up the first-base line where it hits B1's bat that was lying on the

ground in fair territory. The ball deflects into foul territory. Is the ball fair or foul? RULING: The ball is

foul, provided the bat was not placed there intentionally. The bat is considered to be part of the playing

field. (2-5-1, 2-8-1, 8-4-1d)

Thanks - that's exactly the case play we need - didn't even look there.  It did occur to me that bats are listed in their own section separate from "Player Equipment" and may be treated differently.  So if a batting helmet fell off the BR's head and the ball rolled against it in fair territory, then it should be fair at that instant since a batting helmet is considered to be "equipment?"

[noumpere]

Thanks - that's exactly the case play we need - didn't even look there.  It did occur to me that bats are listed in their own section separate from "Player Equipment" and may be treated differently.  So if a batting helmet fell off the BR's head and the ball rolled against it in fair territory, then it should be fair at that instant since a batting helmet is considered to be "equipment?"

Despite the various wordings, I think the ruling is the same in all codes.

[maven]

Thanks - that's exactly the case play we need - didn't even look there.  It did occur to me that bats are listed in their own section separate from "Player Equipment" and may be treated differently.  So if a batting helmet fell off the BR's head and the ball rolled against it in fair territory, then it should be fair at that instant since a batting helmet is considered to be "equipment?"

I'd treat that the same as the bat: it's nothing by itself.

I think that the point of adding equipment in FED is not to change the OBR/NCAA rule, but instead to "clarify" it. The equipment involved is that of a fielder or umpire: a batted ball lands in fair and bounces back toward foul, deflects off F2's shin guards in fair territory, and continues to foul. That's a fair ball, but some HS umpires might quibble over whether it struck the "player or his uniform." So FED adds "or equipment."

I don't believe that this is intended as a substantive rule difference among the codes. There's no rationale for such a difference.

[grayhawk]

I'd treat that the same as the bat: it's nothing by itself.

I think that the point of adding equipment in FED is not to change the OBR/NCAA rule, but instead to "clarify" it. The equipment involved is that of a fielder or umpire: a batted ball lands in fair and bounces back toward foul, deflects off F2's shin guards in fair territory, and continues to foul. That's a fair ball, but some HS umpires might quibble over whether it struck the "player or his uniform." So FED adds "or equipment."

I don't believe that this is intended as a substantive rule difference among the codes. There's no rationale for such a difference.

I can definitely buy that - just a quirk in the wording of the rules.  Rationale for differences?  Now that's funny.

[lilleaguer]

It's interesting that there appears to be a difference between Fed and NCAA, and OBR with respect to fair/foul when a batted ball touches a bat and then continues on into foul territory between home and third or home and first.

Fed says the ball is fair if, while over fair territory, it "touches the person of an umpire or player, their clothing or equipment."

NCAA says the ball is fair if it "First touches a player, umpire or any piece of equipment while over fair territory."

OBR says the ball is fair if, while over fair territory, it "touches the person of an umpire or player..."  Nothing about equipment.

So it would seem that in Fed and NCAA, the instant the ball touches the bat, it's a fair ball, while in OBR we need to wait to see if it's touched by a player, or settles in fair territory to point it fair.

Thoughts?

 

According to the definition, equipment is always a part of the person in OBR.

But I'm not sure if a dropped bat would be considered the player's equipment anymore.

The PERSON of a player or an umpire is any part of his body, his clothing or his equipment.

[Senor Azul]

The original poster did not state which code his game situation was played under but if it was OBR here's the answer right in a rule:

6.05(h) and following Comment [new rule 5.09(a)(8)]  

A batter is out when-

(h) After hitting or bunting a fair ball, his bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory. The ball is dead and no runners may advance. If the batter runner drops his bat and the ball rolls against the bat in fair territory and, in the umpire's judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, the ball is alive and in play; If a bat breaks and part of it is in fair territory and is hit by a batted ball or part of it hits a runner or fielder, play shall continue and no interference called. If batted ball hits part of broken bat in foul territory, it is a foul ball.

If a whole bat is thrown into fair territory and interferes with a defensive player attempting to make a play, interference shall be called, whether intentional or not. In cases where the batting helmet is accidentally hit with a batted or thrown ball, the ball remains in play the same as if it has not hit the helmet. If a batted ball strikes a batting helmet or any other object foreign to the natural ground while on foul territory, it is a foul ball and the ball is dead. If, in the umpire's judgment, there is intent on the part of a baserunner to interfere with a batted or thrown ball by dropping the helmet or throwing it at the ball, then the runner would be out, the ball dead and runners would return to last base legally touched.

 

A bat is an unnatural object and if a batted ball strikes it over fair territory the ball remains live, and is fair or foul based on the requisites found in the definitions given earlier in this thread. If the batted ball strikes an unnatural object e.g., the bat, over foul territory the ball is foul and dead by rule.

[Guest]

Thank you all for your answers.  It help a lot.

[Sut'n Blue]

I would think the rule regarding helmets as quoted by Senor harkens back to when batters would throw their helmets off after hitting the ball so as to as to not be encumbered by the helmet when running the bases.

[MT73]

If the ball rolls into the bat in fair territory and remains fair it is a live ball and play on.

If the bat strikes the ball a second time in fair territory then it is interference and the batter is out.

In federation rules it must be intentionally striking the ball a second time to have an out.

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2015 by MT73