Arkansas Vandy Crazy play at the plate

[johnnyg08]

 

What are your thoughts on the PU's initial positioning?  

 

Do you think he could see the missed swipe tag on R3 from that position? 

[BuckeyeMike]

Obviously he wasn't in the ideal position to see this, but he knew he got it right when the catcher popped up ready to apply the tag again.

3BLX would have been a great spot to be in.

 

I'm interested to hear if anyone has anything on R3 leaving the dirt circle to avoid a tag.  ?   Once R3 stands up after his initial slide, I think he's then bound by the same rules as between the bases.    Thoughts?

[VAUmp]

I was wondering the exact same thing Mike (I can't say Buckeye .. ROLL TIDE!!)

[ricka56]

 

PU may have been in the best position to see daylight between runner and mitt. But if he was, I think he was lucky. I think 3BLX and then follow F2 forward near/into fair territory should have been the place to be.

 

I'm interested to hear if anyone has anything on R3 leaving the dirt circle to avoid a tag.  ?   Once R3 stands up after his initial slide, I think he's then bound by the same rules as between the bases.    Thoughts?

 

PU was also lucky to get a tag out instead of having to make a hard to sell out of the base path out call. I would like to see NCAA address whether this is an out of the base path sitch or not.

[maven]

I'm interested to hear if anyone has anything on R3 leaving the dirt circle to avoid a tag.  ?   Once R3 stands up after his initial slide, I think he's then bound by the same rules as between the bases.    Thoughts?

 

I thought about it. You've got two great athletes working hard, and nothing egregious. PU's "out of the baseline" no-calls are (both) 100% supportable here.

 

Especially in the situation (extra innings, NCAA D1), we're going to be a little more circumspect about making that call. If you're on game 5 of the day and it's the 3rd inning of your 16–2 11U game, go ahead and get that out!

[johnnyg08]

Nice screen shot Ricka.  

[ricka56]

I thought about it. You've got two great athletes working hard, and nothing egregious. PU's "out of the baseline" no-calls are (both) 100% supportable here.

 

Especially in the situation (extra innings, NCAA D1), we're going to be a little more circumspect about making that call. If you're on game 5 of the day and it's the 3rd inning of your 16–2 11U game, go ahead and get that out!

 

In the last no-call, F2 makes a tag attempt and runner avoids the tag by more than the allotted 3 feet. How is that 100% supportable (by rule)? Especially if your call/no-call decision is based on which inning you're in.

[maven]

In the last no-call, F2 makes a tag attempt and runner avoids the tag by more than the allotted 3 feet. How is that 100% supportable (by rule)? Especially if your call/no-call decision is based on which inning you're in.

That's not what I see. I see a fielder dive and miss. The runner (in both instances) displays tremendous body control: he avoids the tag attempt by moving the part of his body the attempt targets, and leaving part of his body within the prescribed 3 feet. (Your screen shot above demonstrates this point.) So I'm distinguishing between dodging a tag attempt, which we have here, and running more than 3 feet out of the base path to avoid a tag, which we do not have. Once the tag attempt misses, the runner is free to go where he wishes, until the next tag attempt begins.

 

Since this play resulted in an out anyway, earned properly, neither offense nor defense is in much position to complain about the call (or no-calls). At this level, in this game, calling an out for being out of the baseline would probably have jeopardized that PU's career in the SEC, if not ended it. For most of us, though, these points are irrelevant.

 

You're free, of course, to call it as you see it.

[ricka56]

 

 So I'm distinguishing between dodging a tag attempt, which we have here, and running more than 3 feet out of the base path to avoid a tag, which we do not have. Once the tag attempt misses, the runner is free to go where he wishes, until the next tag attempt begins.

 

This is the part about this rule that is so mucky to me. All of these last second missed tag/avoidances are within 3 feet. Yet, even though the momentum of the avoidance move takes him far beyond the 3 feet allowed, you say that the runner has no more obligation to any path the instant the tag is missed. Though his momentum now takes him way beyond the line of the tag attempt and the base (and obviously more than 3 feet from the held ball) there is no longer a tag attempt so an out of the base path sitch can no longer exist.

 

This is a catch-22 situation. So, as long as you are more than 3 feet away there is no tag attempt, you can take any path. And if you are within 3 feet (tag attempt range), as long as you aren't tagged no matter the pre/post path of the runner at the time of the tag attempt, you are not of the base path...I don't know when this rule would ever be enforced and I think it is a bastardization of the spirit of this rule. When the defense has a runner dead to rights, an out is the expected call. The runner better stay within the 3 feet path to be able to punk the defense.

 

I remember a video few years back when a runner avoided a tag and the momentum of his avoidance took him beyond 3 feet (as he tried to cut back towards the base), and he was called out of the base path, to much fanfare (in umpire forums) about the umpire's courage to make this unusual call.

 

I would like a more official interp about this rule. Three questions answered can clear this up.

1. is the runner's tag avoidance momentum immediately after the missed tag attempt to be considered in the three foot path allotment.

2. does a possible out of the base path condition vanish the instant the tag is missed.

3. does the runners whole body need to stay within the 3 feet (legs/feet) or just any part of the body.

 

The NCAA does the best job using video to demonstrate their point of emphasis. I wish they'd take this rule interp up sometime.

 

edited to add a third question.

[johnnyg08]

 

 

 So I'm distinguishing between dodging a tag attempt, which we have here, and running more than 3 feet out of the base path to avoid a tag, which we do not have. Once the tag attempt misses, the runner is free to go where he wishes, until the next tag attempt begins.

 

This is the part about this rule that is so mucky to me. All of these last second missed tag/avoidances are within 3 feet. Yet, even though the momentum of the avoidance move takes him far beyond the 3 feet allowed, you say that the runner has no more obligation to any path the instant the tag is missed. Though his momentum now takes him way beyond the line of the tag attempt and the base (and obviously more than 3 feet from the held ball) there is no longer a tag attempt so an out of the base path sitch can no longer exist.

 

This is a catch-22 situation. So, as long as you are more than 3 feet away there is no tag attempt, you can take any path. And if you are within 3 feet (tag attempt range), as long as you aren't tagged no matter the pre/post path of the runner at the time of the tag attempt, you are not of the base path...I don't know when this rule would ever be enforced and I think it is a bastardization of the spirit of this rule. When the defense has a runner dead to rights, an out is the expected call. The runner better stay within the 3 feet path to be able to punk the defense.

 

I remember a video few years back when a runner avoided a tag and the momentum of his avoidance took him beyond 3 feet (as he tried to cut back towards the base), and he was called out of the base path, to much fanfare (in umpire forums) about the umpire's courage to make this unusual call.

 

I would like a more official interp about this rule. Two questions answered can clear this up.

1. is the runner's tag avoidance momentum immediately after the missed tag attempt to be considered in the three foot path allotment.

2. does a possible out of the base path condition vanish the instant the tag is missed.

 

The NCAA does the best job using video to demonstrate their point of emphasis. I wish they'd take this rule interp up sometime.

 

 

Let's wait and see.  Maybe they'll tackle this play. 

[th3]

I think the ump was in the best position he could have been initially...moving up and right on the inside hip...and then when the runner did what he did it was hard to make the right adjustment...

[goody14]

Pretty good timing and poise (especially in context of extra innings)

[Richvee]

I'm also starting to doubt if I have a good understanding of running more than 3 feet out of the basepath to avoid a tag. 

 

After the initial miss, R3 is standing on the back edge of the dirt circle. relatively straight back from the LH batter's box, with F2 in possession of the ball, standing right behind home plate, waiting to apply a tag if R3 tries for the plate. R3 then runs to his left, actually beyond the dirt circle, and and relatively straight back from the RH batter's box. As F2 dives to make a tag, R3 then runs back to his right, all the way back to a direct line behind the LH batter's box before turning towards the plate.  

 

I see F3 run right and left, and back, yet it seems the prevailing sentiment here is the runner is within his rights. Then I think back to some threads on the "skunk in the outfield play", and remember reading things like, once  a fielder takes a step at R1, R1 must now run within a 3 foot line to either side  back to 1st or second, and, if he continues to back up he's out for basepath infraction. 

 

Seems to me in this play, once R3 is behind the plate and even with the LHBB and F2 is there with the ball, when F3 runs left all the way to even with the RHBB, he's clearly gone more than 3 feet from a direct line between him and home while F2 was attempting a tag. 

[Majordave]

Does anyone on here know George Drouches or Tom Hiler oersonally or well enough to frame this issue for them to see if NCAA would consider picking this up and answering some of these great questions? I've met George but I'm certain he won't remember me. And I'm not a D1"Big Dog". I do know the D2 National Coordinator Dan Weikle well enough and I will ask him.

[johnnyg08]

Does anyone on here know George Derouches or Tom Hiler oersonally or well enough to frame this issue for them to see if NCAA would consider picking this up and answering some of these great questions? I've met George but I'm certain he won't remember me. And I'm not a D1"Big Dog". I do know the D2 guy Dan Weikle well enough and I will ask him.

 

Let us know what you hear from Weikle. 

[conbo61]

It appears as if he initially set up on 1BX.  Not sure why, 1B umpire had the fair/foul.

 

This looks like an instance where he perhaps should have took a step or two straight back from the point, (like JonnyCat said they were teaching at TUS) read the play and adjusted accordingly.

[johnnyg08]

Let us know what Weikle says

[JaxRolo]

Making this call would have been 100% supportable.

[catsbackr]

1BX to start the play is 100% right.  Where is the fly ball/throw going to come from, RF.  PU started at 1BX and moved to where the throw took him. 

 

I think PU did a great job avoiding the runner as well as rodeoing the pitcher to get a look. 

 

And remember, this is a D1 umpire working a SEC game.  I'd love to be the guy getting critiqued here.

[basejester]

Nice positioning. He's still ready to make the call if one of his teammates tries to unfreeze him.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Does anyone on here know George Drouches or Tom Hiler oersonally or well enough to frame this issue for them to see if NCAA would consider picking this up and answering some of these great questions? I've met George but I'm certain he won't remember me. And I'm not a D1"Big Dog". I do know the D2 National Coordinator Dan Weikle well enough and I will ask him.

I'm pretty sure they have seen this play by now.

[Majordave]

I am sure they have Mike.  I just wanted them to know we umpires could benefit from some more explanation of the play from the evaluator/trainer/coordinator point of view.  Especially the questions raised in this thread about the umpire's positioning and the basepath after the tag questions.  Trying to make sure they consider addressing it in a mid-season video.

 

I did email Dan Weikle and sent him a link to the thread and invited him to this website.

[noumpere]

I'm also starting to doubt if I have a good understanding of running more than 3 feet out of the basepath to avoid a tag. 

 

A long time ago, there was a philosophy that it was next-to-impossible to go out of the baseline if you were near the base.  Following that, the play would NOT be out of the baseline.

 

I don't know if that philosophy is still taught (or if it's changed, or if it's just not mentioned).

[noumpere]

1BX to start the play is 100% right.  Where is the fly ball/throw going to come from, RF.  PU started at 1BX and moved to where the throw took him. 

 

 

I think that's backwards.  If (as was once taught) you're going to go off the direction of the throw, you go 3BX from right and 1BX from left (at least as I recall).

 

But, it's better to pretty much ignore where the throw comes from and just read the catcher (or the fielder at other bases).

[JaxRolo]

I don't care where the throw comes from. Just gotta read the play and get in position.