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Do We Have Anything Illegal On This Play


damon2g
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Wacky play at a Triple Crown tournament event, 11-12 year old baseball. We have runners on 1st and 3rd with one out. New batter. Batter squares around and attempts to bunt. Runner from 3rd is coming home and runner on 1st heads for 2nd. Suicide squeeze play attempt. Batter misses the bunt. The ball come out of the catcher's glove and begin to roll down the first base line in fair territory. The batter-runner start running to first base. The catcher picks up the ball and instead of attempting to tag the runner coming home, he makes a throw to first base on the batter runner.
 
This play really happened. I call time and I rule that the lead runner is out via deception. From my perspective, the batter-runner had no reason to run to the first base because he clearly missed the bunt and the catcher was deceived by the action of the batter-runner. If not so, then the catcher could potentially have made a play on the lead runner. I return the batter-runner to the plate with no balls one strike. The runner on second stays.
 
Thoughts, comments? Thanks.

 

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Here's my issue with this place.  I searched the NFHS rulebook and casebook and there are no rules to my knowledge

that support my decision.  However, my fear on this play if I don't make a ruling, then the potential for this play

to happen will increase.   By having no rules to prevent this, a batter-runner could essentially do this every pitch

that is not ball four or a dropped third strike.

 

For clarification, would I not be covered under any of the following rules?

 

NFHS Rule 7-3 Article 5c "ART. 5 . . . Interfere with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by: c. making any other movement which hinders actions at home plate or the catcher’s attempt to play on a runner
 
NFHS Rule 10-3 G "Make final decisions on points not covered by the rules."
 
OBR 9.01b Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules, and to enforce the prescribed penalties. 
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Here's my issue with this place.  I searched the NFHS rulebook and casebook and there are no rules to my knowledge

that support my decision.  However, my fear on this play if I don't make a ruling, then the potential for this play

to happen will increase.   By having no rules to prevent this, a batter-runner could essentially do this every pitch

that is not ball four or a dropped third strike.

 

For clarification, would I not be covered under any of the following rules?

 

NFHS Rule 7-3 Article 5c "ART. 5 . . . Interfere with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by: c. making any other movement which hinders actions at home plate or the catcher’s attempt to play on a runner
 
NFHS Rule 10-3 G "Make final decisions on points not covered by the rules."
 
OBR 9.01b Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules, and to enforce the prescribed penalties. 

 

 

 

No, it won't happened all the time if the defense knows the situation.  The catcher knows the batter missed the ball too.  Why would he throw to 1B?  

 

It's not your responsibility to make new rules because you don't like the current rules.  All that does is confuse people and make it harder for umpires coming in after you.

 

Sorry.  No violation here.  The rules you cited are not relevant to your original post.

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I agree with the consensus: no violation on this play. Deception per se is not illegal, and does not in itself constitute hindrance of the defense.

 

Frankly, I don't see much chance of coach drawing this one up to use for a cheap run. How could he count on F2 misplaying the pitch?

 

Moreover, once the B leaves the batter's box, he is at risk of hindering F2's play. That's what I was expecting in the OP: any contact or alteration of play by that batter running near the ball would have been BI. Benefit of any doubt way, way to the defense.

 

But here, no hindrance = no INT.

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Here's my issue with this place.  I searched the NFHS rulebook and casebook and there are no rules to my knowledge

that support my decision.  However, my fear on this play if I don't make a ruling, then the potential for this play

to happen will increase.   By having no rules to prevent this, a batter-runner could essentially do this every pitch

that is not ball four or a dropped third strike.

 

For clarification, would I not be covered under any of the following rules?

 

NFHS Rule 7-3 Article 5c "ART. 5 . . . Interfere with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by: c. making any other movement which hinders actions at home plate or the catcher’s attempt to play on a runner
 
NFHS Rule 10-3 G "Make final decisions on points not covered by the rules."
 
OBR 9.01b Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules, and to enforce the prescribed penalties. 

 

 

You are trying to legislate "fairness" and thats not our role.......the rule book is old style worded and oddly arranged but its fairly complete, dont go looking for place to insert a rule.......no violation on this play.....the defense is expected to know the count and the situation........your effort basically aided the defense for not being on top of the game situation.....and how could that be "fair" to the offense?

Edited by Stan W.
clarity
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Bases loaded no outs

Swing and miss dropped third strike

Kid takes off to first cause his coaches are stupid and yelling to run

All the runners take off

Catcher knowing the rules tags the runner coming home

I call him out and coaches lose there mind saying I should have yelled at the runner and I tell them I am not a coach

 

This has happened four times in the last month to me

 

 

Its close to what you had either way the players have to know the rules

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Bases loaded no outs

Swing and miss dropped third strike

Kid takes off to first cause his coaches are stupid and yelling to run

All the runners take off

Catcher knowing the rules tags the runner coming home

I call him out and coaches lose there mind saying I should have yelled at the runner and I tell them I am not a coach

 

This has happened four times in the last month to me

 

 

Its close to what you had either way the players have to know the rules

 

What are you doing while all this is going on. Just silently signalling the strike?

 

Yes, the defense is responsible for knowing the situation- knowing that the batter can't advance here and no throw is necessary. I'm not sure what the coach wanted you to "yell at the runner", but there is something you can do as a dose of preventive umpiring.

 

When a retired batter starts running to first following a third strike, when he's not entitled to run, you can step up and LOUDLY and FIRMLY announce, "Batter out, batter out!", while giving a strong out signal. Now, if the defense makes the wrong play...it's on them. You did your job by clearly communicating the situation to all the players. 

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Bases loaded no outs

Swing and miss dropped third strike

Kid takes off to first cause his coaches are stupid and yelling to run

All the runners take off

Catcher knowing the rules tags the runner coming home

I call him out and coaches lose there mind saying I should have yelled at the runner and I tell them I am not a coach

This has happened four times in the last month to me

Its close to what you had either way the players have to know the rules

In this situation, you should emphatically call the batter out. "Batter's out! He's out!" or something similar. Yes, both teams need to know the situation, but the umpire should make the call too. Of course, you are not "yelling at the runner," but are informing all participants about your ruling on the play.

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Bases loaded no outs

Swing and miss dropped third strike

Kid takes off to first cause his coaches are stupid and yelling to run

All the runners take off

Catcher knowing the rules tags the runner coming home

I call him out and coaches lose there mind saying I should have yelled at the runner and I tell them I am not a coach

This has happened four times in the last month to me

Its close to what you had either way the players have to know the rules

God forbid if an IFF drops uncaught and runners take off

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Bases loaded no outs

Swing and miss dropped third strike

Kid takes off to first cause his coaches are stupid and yelling to run

All the runners take off

Catcher knowing the rules tags the runner coming home

I call him out and coaches lose there mind saying I should have yelled at the runner and I tell them I am not a coach

 

This has happened four times in the last month to me

 

 

Its close to what you had either way the players have to know the rules

 

What are you doing while all this is going on. Just silently signalling the strike?

 

Yes, the defense is responsible for knowing the situation- knowing that the batter can't advance here and no throw is necessary. I'm not sure what the coach wanted you to "yell at the runner", but there is something you can do as a dose of preventive umpiring.

 

When a retired batter starts running to first following a third strike, when he's not entitled to run, you can step up and LOUDLY and FIRMLY announce, "Batter out, batter out!", while giving a strong out signal. Now, if the defense makes the wrong play...it's on them. You did your job by clearly communicating the situation to all the players. 

 

 

I do my signal for strike 3 and I yell batters out but you got 3 coaches and 30 fans screaming for him to run so he is going to run. 

 

If you had a IFF and runners take off running before it is caught would you start yelling at the runners to go back or would you let it play out? 

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Bases loaded no outs

Swing and miss dropped third strike

Kid takes off to first cause his coaches are stupid and yelling to run

All the runners take off

Catcher knowing the rules tags the runner coming home

I call him out and coaches lose there mind saying I should have yelled at the runner and I tell them I am not a coach

 

This has happened four times in the last month to me

 

 

Its close to what you had either way the players have to know the rules

 

You should have been yelling "Batter's out!" a couple of times.

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deception is only for balks

 

Illegal deception is only for balks.

 

Bases loaded no outs

Swing and miss dropped third strike

Kid takes off to first cause his coaches are stupid and yelling to run

All the runners take off

Catcher knowing the rules tags the runner coming home

I call him out and coaches lose there mind saying I should have yelled at the runner and I tell them I am not a coach

This has happened four times in the last month to me

Its close to what you had either way the players have to know the rules

God forbid if an IFF drops uncaught and runners take off

 

 

Happens all of the time.

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