RLV/Quality Throw

[maven]

Here's one from 2015:

Excellent example of authoritative and definitive confusion, for me at least.

NFHS/Referee Baseball Preseason Guide 2015, Running Lane, Baseline, Basepath: Not All the Same, "Play 1: Ruling1" on p. 12:

"The quality... of the throw [does] not matter" What's the call when the throw is caught (perhaps in flight; have you been to some of my games?!) by F9 backing up the play near the on-field bullpen down the RF line, or by a spectator in the stands? I'm exaggerating here (or am I?) to make a point.

"The...direction of the throw [does] not matter." Really? What's the call when F2 goes to F1 near the hill for no other reason than to make the obligatory throw safely?

"If B1 is outside the running lane at the time of the throw..., B1 is out for interference." Is it automatic, or does there actually have to be interference like briefly mentioned in the printed rule?

"If B1 is outside the running lane...then interferes with the fielding of the throw, B1 is out for interference." This is the one statement in the entire ruling that I can and do live by.

As others smarter than me have said and written, a BR running outside the lane demonstrates by his position his intent to interfere. But, does the crew still need some sort of interference in either throwing to or receiving at 1B to make the interference call?

Do you try to make everything so complicated? This isn't that hard. You need 3 things:

1. Runner out of the lane

2. Throw

3. Judgment of hindrance.

Any throw vaguely toward 1B, FED wants you to rule hindrance. If the runner is past 1B before the throw, then his being out of the lane was not hindrance, so no INT. No throw = no hindrance = no INT.

I don't quite get why you want this to be so hard. The rule is not confusing (though the writing is). If you're looking for cover to never call RLI, I don't think you need any: coaches never want it called anyway. Otherwise, just call it when you see it.

maven

[Majordave]

Speaking as a former RAT.......they are Effin Rats.  Hahahahaha!

 

At least I read a rule book a few times a season.  Most of my brethren never opened one in their entire collective careers.

[KenBAZ]

And did you guys notice that the umpire calling the play had to eventually dump the manager? As I have stated over and over again. Make this call, have to explain it and then usually warn or restrict or eject. RLI/RLV calls evoke some serious emotions.

Great clip. Thanks @johnnyg08.

Because we haven't enforced it consistently enough. Coaches haven't coached to it and players are clueless about it. I always focused on avoiding the issue by having my F2 communicate with F3 and create a throwing lane. You could not count on protection from the umpires. Perhaps with the Fed POE we'll get more consistency.

[Majordave]

I actually did coach to it.   I coached my guys to run on the line on bunts. (even the unintentional full swing kind) and adjust a step in if the catcher called inside.  Several were hit by throws or catchers airmailed the throw.  No call by the umpire.  Maybe once did that not work in our favor.

[noumpere]

 

Here's one from 2015:

 

Excellent example of authoritative and definitive confusion, for me at least. 

 

NFHS/Referee Baseball Preseason Guide 2015, Running Lane, Baseline, Basepath: Not All the Same, "Play 1: Ruling1" on p. 12:

 

"The quality... of the throw [does] not matter"  What's the call when the throw is caught (perhaps in flight; have you been to some of my games?!) by F9 backing up the play near the on-field bullpen down the RF line, or by a spectator in the stands?  I'm exaggerating here (or am I?) to make a point.

 

"The...direction of the throw [does] not matter."  Really?  What's the call when F2 goes to F1 near the hill for no other reason than to make the obligatory throw safely?

 

"If B1 is outside the running lane at the time of the throw..., B1 is out for interference."  Is it automatic, or does there actually have to be interference like briefly mentioned in the printed rule?

 

"If B1 is outside the running lane...then interferes with the fielding of the throw, B1 is out for interference."  This is the one statement in the entire ruling that I can and do live by.  

 

As others smarter than me have said and written, a BR running outside the lane demonstrates by his position his intent to interfere.  But, does the crew still need some sort of interference in either throwing to or receiving at 1B to make the interference call?

 

In real life it's not as confusing as it is in theory.

 

If you think F2 (or F1, or F5) was attempting to throw to first to retire the runner, but made a bad throw, then get the out.

 

If you think F2(or F1 or F5) sees the runner out of the lane and thinks "aha -- automatic out" and intentionall throws the ball into the stands, award second base.  This second option happens approximately less than 0% of the time.

[Cav]

 

Do you try to make everything so complicated? This isn't that hard. You need 3 things:

1. Runner out of the lane

2. Throw

3. Judgment of hindrance.

Any throw vaguely toward 1B, FED wants you to rule hindrance. If the runner is past 1B before the throw, then his being out of the lane was not hindrance, so no INT. No throw = no hindrance = no INT.

I don't quite get why you want this to be so hard. The rule is not confusing (though the writing is). If you're looking for cover to never call RLI, I don't think you need any: coaches never want it called anyway. Otherwise, just call it when you see it.

maven

 

 

I'm not really trying.  (If you want to read how complicated I can make something if I try, ask me about gyroscopic precession.)

 

Many on here know it's not a complex issue, but it seems to me that the NFHS is going out of their way to make it so.  It won't affect my game much, but think of the less experienced when a rule book or case book doesn't back up what is "common knowledge" among most umpires. 

 

I get the impression that several respondents in this and the other recent thread on the topic have more than just a few years of experience managing situations involving Skippers reacting as seen in the video, above.  (I wouldn't doubt the video has been used in a NFHS Clinic for Coaches.  They probably get the version where the perps are "mic-ed" so they can learn some new groups of words.)  But, the newer guys are building up their experience level and wouldn't it be great if they could incorporate in their comments that the "quality" of the throw or the "direction" of the throw or that the throw must originate from "behind" the BR and have the rule book back them up.  

    

 

[johnnyg08]

The FED version actually takes virtually all judgment out of the play.

[johnnyg08]

Here's one where in FED it would be automatic RLI all day long by rule.

They called it RLI in MLB, and personally I think they got it wrong. There is more judgment involved for this play under OBR than FED.

As always, ignore the announcers.

See and judge for yourself:

[johnnyg08]

There has to be a throw. If it's 20 feet over F3/F4 head at 1B, in FED, it's interference if B/R is outside the runners lane.

I feel that the FED's reasoning for this is so F2's aren't trying to throw the baseball between the B/R's shoulder blades.

They can airmail it and still get the call.

[UMP45]

Here's one where in FED it would be automatic RLI all day long by rule.

They called it RLI in MLB, and personally I think they got it wrong. There is more judgment involved for this play under OBR than FED.

As always, ignore the announcers.

See and judge for yourself:

Why do you think it was the wrong call?

[maven]

I'm not sure that's RLI in any code. The BR seemed to be in the lane when the throw went past him (or hit him?), and only THEN ran into fair. Very tight: probably close enough to be supportable either way. But let's be clear: if you rule the BR in the lane, then he cannot possibly be guilty of RLI. INT with a thrown ball, yes, if he does something intentional, but that's rather unlikely.

 

If we agree that the BR was out the lane, the next issue for pro ball is whether this is a quality throw. It does have a chance to retire the runner: it either hit the runner or screened the fielder. Either way, I'm good with this part of the ruling.

 

And we should take every opportunity to remark on what an azz Girardi is.

[Majordave]

Aaaaand another EJ as a result of an RLI call.

I think the BR was fine being inside until the 45' lane lines/lane. He was not in the lane when the ball hit him. So, for me, the question then shifts to quality throw. For me it's a relative term. Slow(er) F2 trying to make play off balance while trying to go full speed. I don't think he was trying to hit BR with the throw but he may have. Could he have stopped, gathered his feet under him, cocked arm in catcher's throw from his ear, called outside and made it close? Probably but he was trying to make the play. The BR was out of lane some (left foot inside in my opinion) when hit with the throw. Split-second decision. I'm getting the out for RLI at all levels of baseball I work.

[Majordave]

But I'm an outs and strikes guy. Games are just too F*#King long these days. Get outs whenever you can.

Oh, and I don't have a problem with Girardi. I was a catcher for a bit of my player days and I liked him when he played. But, I'm also wearing a Yankees hat while I type this.

[lawump]

A running lane interference was called in MLB two or three years ago on a throw from F5.  R1 and R2.  Bunt right in front of home plate.  F2 fielded the bunt and threw to F5 for out #1.  F5 threw to F3 to try to complete the double-play and the B/R was called out for running lane interference.  It was St. Louis at Philadelphia.  Andy Fletcher was the plate umpire, Tim McClelland was the crew chief. 

 

I have the video saved on my computer, but I have no idea how I could upload it and post it in this thread.

[Majordave]

That would be cool to see.  Someone more tech savvy than me help him.  @johnnyg08 ?  @Thunderheads ?

[basejester]

Upload it to youtube?

[Richvee]

A running lane interference was called in MLB two or three years ago on a throw from F5.  R1 and R2.  Bunt right in front of home plate.  F2 fielded the bunt and threw to F5 for out #1.  F5 threw to F3 to try to complete the double-play and the B/R was called out for running lane interference.  It was St. Louis at Philadelphia.  Andy Fletcher was the plate umpire, Tim McClelland was the crew chief. 

 

I have the video saved on my computer, but I have no idea how I could upload it and post it in this thread.

I'm not Mr. tech but I think I could offer some help. Click the button on the bottom right in the reply box that says "more reply options. Then at the bottom left, Attach Files, click "choose File" and you should be able to find the clip from your computer highlite it and click "choose". 

[Richvee]

And did you guys notice that the umpire calling the play had to eventually dump the manager?  As I have stated over and over again.  Make this call, have to explain it and then usually warn or restrict or eject.   RLI/RLV calls evoke some serious emotions.

 

Great clip.  Thanks @johnnyg08.

The media also plays a role in the reason this call is argued every time.  There's an agenda with the media, led by Harold Reynolds to have this rule removed. The MLB "talking heads" bring it up every damn time the call is made. "The batter has to run in fair territory to touch the base, yada yada...Every time it's called, the media goes on their "this is a dumb rule" rant. MLB, ESPN...all of 'em. 

[johnnyg08]

A running lane interference was called in MLB two or three years ago on a throw from F5.  R1 and R2.  Bunt right in front of home plate.  F2 fielded the bunt and threw to F5 for out #1.  F5 threw to F3 to try to complete the double-play and the B/R was called out for running lane interference.  It was St. Louis at Philadelphia.  Andy Fletcher was the plate umpire, Tim McClelland was the crew chief. 

 

I have the video saved on my computer, but I have no idea how I could upload it and post it in this thread.

I sent him a PM

[johnnyg08]

Found it. I merged two separate clips together. Thanks for the excellent description of the video!

So for those a bit late to the party, this clip shows a call of RLI on a throw from third base. I extracted and deleted the audio for our sanity.

[Thunderheads]

A running lane interference was called in MLB two or three years ago on a throw from F5.  R1 and R2.  Bunt right in front of home plate.  F2 fielded the bunt and threw to F5 for out #1.  F5 threw to F3 to try to complete the double-play and the B/R was called out for running lane interference.  It was St. Louis at Philadelphia.  Andy Fletcher was the plate umpire, Tim McClelland was the crew chief. 

 

I have the video saved on my computer, but I have no idea how I could upload it and post it in this thread.

don't you post a video like you post a photo?

[johnnyg08]

don't you post a video like you post a photo?

Or just have me do it. :-)

[Majordave]

I vote for the way Johnny does it. No annoying announcers and their simply wrong commentary about the rules of the game.

Can you imagine what it would be like if every player, coach, manager, team sycophant and fan knew the rules of the game well?

[Majordave]

In reviewing the F5 throw draws RLI call video it appeared that the BR was inside all the way, he may have even leaned in toward the throw a bit. I think it hit him although hard to tell. When they show his face close up it looks like he said "that hurt".

Nice job Johnny. Definitely an exception to the general guidance Carl Childress gives in BRD about the throw needing to come from behind the runner. But, in this case it really looks to me like the BR interfered.

[lawump]

I just logged in this morning after posting my "I don't know how to post a video" post yesterday...and saw that you all took care of it.  Nice work.