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Little League Catcher to Pitcher rules

Question

I have a quick question.  The green book states that you can only pitch 40 pitches and still catch.  If you pitch 41 pitches you are not allowed to catch in that game.  However,  It does not have a rule for the revese which is if a player catches first how many pitches is he allowed to throw if he comes into pitch?  I also know that the green book states that if you catch for 4 inning you cannot pitch.  Is there a rule that limits a kid from pitching to many pitches after he has caught in a game or do you just revert back to the normal pitch counts for the league age and it does not matter that he caught first. ?  It seems like there is a loophole here?  Thanks in advance. Nick

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Guest James B.

 

So if I understand this right....A pitcher can pitch two full innings and throw say 35 pitches and still catch for the final four innings and get around the rule correct? Because if he catches the four innings first then he can't pitch, but if he pitches under the limit first and then catches the final four, he has gotten around the "letter of the law" 

 

Coaches in LL are supposed to be responsible for using good judgment and protecting their players.  LL has put in a few rules to corral those who might not always use the best judgment.  Those rules don't (and probably can't) cover every possible scenario that might be wise to limit -- at some point simplicity trumps perfection.  IF you're a coach sketching this out, you should be looking not only at how the rule can be "gooten around" but how to best care for the kids in your charge.  Whether it would be prudent to permit a player to do as described will depend on the kid -- who he is, how strong he is, how hard he throws, how long those catching innings go, and what other teams he plays on.  It's supposed to be about the kids, not how managers can figure out how to work around the system to gain an advantage.

 

 

I wasn't looking to get around it...I just questioned it last night at a game because this is the exact scenario the opposing team did.  I asked the ump when the kid came out to catch for his 4th inning after having pitched the first two if he really could do that since the rules stated you can't catch 4 innings and pitch in the same game....got a blank stare from the ump.  

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So if I understand this right....A pitcher can pitch two full innings and throw say 35 pitches and still catch for the final four innings and get around the rule correct? Because if he catches the four innings first then he can't pitch, but if he pitches under the limit first and then catches the final four, he has gotten around the "letter of the law" 

 

Coaches in LL are supposed to be responsible for using good judgment and protecting their players.  LL has put in a few rules to corral those who might not always use the best judgment.  Those rules don't (and probably can't) cover every possible scenario that might be wise to limit -- at some point simplicity trumps perfection.  IF you're a coach sketching this out, you should be looking not only at how the rule can be "gooten around" but how to best care for the kids in your charge.  Whether it would be prudent to permit a player to do as described will depend on the kid -- who he is, how strong he is, how hard he throws, how long those catching innings go, and what other teams he plays on.  It's supposed to be about the kids, not how managers can figure out how to work around the system to gain an advantage.

 

 

I wasn't looking to get around it...I just questioned it last night at a game because this is the exact scenario the opposing team did.  I asked the ump when the kid came out to catch for his 4th inning after having pitched the first two if he really could do that since the rules stated you can't catch 4 innings and pitch in the same game....got a blank stare from the ump.  

 

 

 

No - it says that if you catch in 4 or more you are then ineligible to pitch.  The condition doesn't kick in until after catching in the 4th inning.  "Any player who HAS played the position of catcher . . . "

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Guest

I came here because I had the same question as the original post.

The rules are pretty clear for one side of the issue:

1) If you deliver 41 or more pitches, you cannot catch at all for the remainder of the game.

2) If you catch 4 innings, you cannot pitch at all for the remainder of the game.

However, what about the reverse of (1) above.  What if a kid starts the game catching and catches for 2 innings?  Based on (2) above, he should still be able to pitch.  But can he then go out and thow as many pitches as he wants (up to the maximum number allowed based on his age)?  Or are you supposed to imply that the first rule above can be flipped (i.e., if a kid catches at all first, he can only throw 40 or less pitches if he comes in to pitch later in the game?)

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The rule means exactly what the rule says.  Don't try to read anything into it.

Rule VI - PITCHERS covers it all.

If they are legal to pitch then they can pitch to the normal limits for their league-age.

If they are legal to catch then they can catch without restriction.

Also, it is the remainder of the CALENDAR DAY, not the remainder of the GAME.  Normally not an issue but multiple games per day are allowed under LL rules.

 

 

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Guest LL Board Member

Can you verify my interpretation of the rule: "Any player, who has played the position of catcher in four (4) or more innings in a game, is not eligible to pitch on that calendar day."

It says if a kid catches in four innings, he/she can't pitch ON THAT calendar day.  It doesn't say "remainder of that calendar day".  Therefore, if a kid throws 1 pitch, he can't catch 4 innings on that day, because doing so would violate the rule on pitching on the same calendar day as catching four innings.

Correct?

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the rule differentiates moving from F2 to F1 vs. F1 to F2.

 

A player can throw up to 40 pitches and then catch, there's no limit on the innings caught after pitching.

VS

 

A player who catches in 4 innings (even if he catches a single pitch in a 4th inning) can no longer pitch.

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Guest Guest LL Board Member

stkjock,

Hooray, a Mets Fan !!

The F2 to F1 rule doesn't say that a kid can NO LONGER PITCH if he catches four innings.  It says if he catches four innings, he can't pitch ON THAT CALENDAR DAY.  "That calendar day" could include any pitching he did BEFORE catching four innings.  

This is different than the F1 to F2 rule which states that if a kid throws 40 pitches, he/she can't catch for the "remainder of that day."  That's very different.

That's why I think the intent of the F2 to F1 rule might be, if a kid pitches, he is ineligible to catch four innings on that calendar day.

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14 minutes ago, Guest Guest LL Board Member said:

That's why I think the intent of the F2 to F1 rule might be, if a kid pitches, he is ineligible to catch four innings on that calendar day.

The rule says, "who has played the position of catcher".  "Has played" is passive.  The restriction on pitching doesn't come into effect until he "has played" the position of catcher in four (4) or more innings in a game.  If they wanted it to apply in both directions it would say, "who has, or will, play the position of catcher..."

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Guest LL Board Member

I see your point.  I'm curious why they didn't use "remainder of that day" in both rules, if the intent was for both to be handled the same way.

Great discussion - thanks for the help !!!

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Something I picked up on this site from a member, Maven, I think it was.  

To paraphrase:

"The rule book book is not written by lawyers"

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9 hours ago, Guest LL Board Member said:

I see your point.  I'm curious why they didn't use "remainder of that day" in both rules, if the intent was for both to be handled the same way.

Great discussion - thanks for the help !!!

 

9 hours ago, stkjock said:

Something I picked up on this site from a member, Maven, I think it was.  

To paraphrase:

"The rule book book is not written by lawyers"

The phrase is "The rules are written by gentlemen, for gentlemen; not by lawyers, for lawyers."

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58 minutes ago, noumpere said:

 

The phrase is "The rules are written by gentlemen, for gentlemen; not by lawyers, for lawyers."

Thank you for setting it straight, I was lazy last night to look for it. 

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Guest COACH DRAI

I have three games coming up (1) Saturday and (DH) Sunday

So I am trying to clarify:  a catcher / pitcher can catch and pitch in a game in either order as long as he stays under 4 innings or under 41 pitches, correct?

 

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from the LLI website:

 

Quote

Note 1: A pitcher who delivers 41 or more pitches in a game cannot play the position of catcher for the remainder of that day. Note 2: Any player who has played the position of catcher in four or more innings in a game is not eligible to pitch on that calendar day.

 

one pitch caught in a an inning = an inning caught

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Guest COACH DRAI

But it doesn't matter what position is played first right?

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2 hours ago, Guest COACH DRAI said:

But it doesn't matter what position is played first right?

No - throw 40 pitches in the first inning without retiring a batter, then catch six innings, and six innings in the next game if you want.

Catch 3 innings, throw 40 pitches, then go ahead and catch again.

Throw 40 pitches, catch three innings, return in same game and pitch again.

Keeping in mind the case of a Double Header, the player can catch in both games if he hasn't passed any of the limits...the player can only pitch in one of the games - even if he hasn't caught at all.

 

If they felt it was that terribly important to restrict more they would have said:

1. a player may not throw more than 40 pitches and catch on the same day

2. a player may not catch in more than 3 innings in a game and pitch on the same day

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5 hours ago, Guest COACH DRAI said:

But it doesn't matter what position is played first right?

 

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

No

/\ /\ This /\ /\

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