This is just bad ....

[Thunderheads]

And why Vogelsong doesn't put a pitch in Holliday's ear, I have no idea?!

Holliday is a lummox ....

http://www.mlb.com/v...049312&c_id=mlb

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=25416505&topic_id=39049312&c_id=mlb&tcid=vpp_copy_25416505&v=3

[BRUMP]

I think the slide is clean, but if it were not the playoffs, Holliday would be getting one high and hard.

[Thunderheads]

I think the slide is clean, but if it were not the playoffs, Holliday would be getting one high and hard.

really?

(caveat: I'm not a Cardinal, or Giants fan either)

[renegadewolf]

I have to respectfully disagree with the clean slide argument. looking at the way he positioned himself , moved his body in the slide and the timing of choosing to slide there is no doubt in my mind that was an intentional take out. Awful easy to play armchair umpire however, as we all know being out there in a pressure situation we need to make snap judgements, so i shall certainly not seek to criticize a pro doing his job.

[JaxRolo]

No way that is clean. Dirty, maliciuos, unsportmanlike. Why they let MLB guys get away with hurting players is beyond me!

There should be Jail time involved in this!

[Guest]

Clean / dirty and legal / illegal are two different things. If you believe this to be illegal, cite your rule or interpretation highlighting the point you believe to apply here.

[Thunderheads]

Clean / dirty and legal / illegal are two different things. If you believe this to be illegal, cite your rule or interpretation highlighting the point you believe to apply here.

6.05m ... (intentional)

[Thunderheads]

I have to respectfully disagree with the clean slide argument. looking at the way he positioned himself , moved his body in the slide and the timing of choosing to slide there is no doubt in my mind that was an intentional take out. Awful easy to play armchair umpire however, as we all know being out there in a pressure situation we need to make snap judgements, so i shall certainly not seek to criticize a pro doing his job.

Notice that I didn't criticize the call.

That being said, ... why can't we if we choose to? We all know that even the pros make mistakes, even though they're the best

[Guest]

Clean / dirty and legal / illegal are two different things. If you believe this to be illegal, cite your rule or interpretation highlighting the point you believe to apply here.

6.05m ... (intentional)

Evans:

(red emphasis mine)

Professional Notes: The runner should be declared out if he deviates from a direct line to the base and subsequently interferes with the fielder making or completing any play. Traditionally, runners are allowed to contact or collide with the defensive player at second just as they are on plays at home plate. However, different guidelines exist:

(1) The runner may divert his path in order to crash the pivot man but he must be able to reach the base with some part of his body; Not Satisfied

(2) The roll block is illegal. The runner must not leave the ground and contact the fielder. If, however, he hits the ground first he is allowed to crash into the pivot man provided he does so at the base; Not Satisfied and

(3) The runner may slide through and beyond the base toward left field and be unable to reach the base provided that he does not do so in order to contact the fielder who has retreated to this position off the base to complete the play. In that event, the previous guideline is in effect and the runner must be able to reach the base with some part of his body. Not Satisfied

2002 MLBUM (outdated but the best I can do from a lecture hall):

Rule 6.05(m) was added to the Official Baseball Rules "to penalize the offensive team for deliberate, unwarranted, unsportsmanlike action by the runner in leaving the baseline for the obvious purpose of crashing the pivot man on a double play rather than trying to reach the base." If, in the judgment of the umpire, a runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a fielder attempting to catch a thrown ball or attempting to throw a ball with the obvious intent to deprive the defense of the opportunity to make a double play, the umpire shall declare the runner out for interference and shall also declare the batter-runner out for the interference of his teammate.

GUIDELINES:

In sliding to a base, the runner should be able to reach the base with his hand or foot. A runner who, in the judgment of the umpire, contacts or attempts to make contact with a fielder with a slide or roll block that is not a bona fide effort to reach and stay on the base may be called out for interference and, when appropriate, a double play may be called. Any definite change in direction by the runner to contact the fielder would be considered interference.

If a runner hits the dirt, slides, and rolls, it does not constitute a rolling block unless the runner leaves his feet and makes contact with the fielder before the runner slides on the ground. If the initial contact is with the fielder instead of the ground for the purpose of breaking up a double play, it is a roll block.

[BRUMP]

Clean / dirty and legal / illegal are two different things. If you believe this to be illegal, cite your rule or interpretation highlighting the point you believe to apply here.

Exactly. It was dirty but in straight OBR it's legal. He did not deviate from the base path and did not do a rolling block.

[Thunderheads]

Evans:

(red emphasis mine)

Professional Notes: The runner should be declared out if he deviates from a direct line to the base and subsequently interferes with the fielder making or completing any play. Traditionally, runners are allowed to contact or collide with the defensive player at second just as they are on plays at home plate. However, different guidelines exist:

(1) The runner may divert his path in order to crash the pivot man but he must be able to reach the base with some part of his body; Not Satisfied

(2) The roll block is illegal. The runner must not leave the ground and contact the fielder. If, however, he hits the ground first he is allowed to crash into the pivot man provided he does so at the base; Not Satisfied and

(3) The runner may slide through and beyond the base toward left field and be unable to reach the base provided that he does not do so in order to contact the fielder who has retreated to this position off the base to complete the play. In that event, the previous guideline is in effect and the runner must be able to reach the base with some part of his body. Not Satisfied

2002 MLBUM (outdated but the best I can do from a lecture hall):

Rule 6.05(m) was added to the Official Baseball Rules "to penalize the offensive team for deliberate, unwarranted, unsportsmanlike action by the runner in leaving the baseline for the obvious purpose of crashing the pivot man on a double play rather than trying to reach the base." If, in the judgment of the umpire, a runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a fielder attempting to catch a thrown ball or attempting to throw a ball with the obvious intent to deprive the defense of the opportunity to make a double play, the umpire shall declare the runner out for interference and shall also declare the batter-runner out for the interference of his teammate.

GUIDELINES:

In sliding to a base, the runner should be able to reach the base with his hand or foot. A runner who, in the judgment of the umpire, contacts or attempts to make contact with a fielder with a slide or roll block that is not a bona fide effort to reach and stay on the base may be called out for interference and, when appropriate, a double play may be called. Any definite change in direction by the runner to contact the fielder would be considered interference.

If a runner hits the dirt, slides, and rolls, it does not constitute a rolling block unless the runner leaves his feet and makes contact with the fielder before the runner slides on the ground. If the initial contact is with the fielder instead of the ground for the purpose of breaking up a double play, it is a roll block.

Chris, number 2, ... Holliday hits Scutaro after the base ....

Remember, I'm not critiziing Gibson ... TOUGH CALL as it happens ......I'm calling it a bull$h!t slide ......and intentional

[JaxRolo]

Evans:

(red emphasis mine)

Professional Notes: The runner should be declared out if he deviates from a direct line to the base and subsequently interferes with the fielder making or completing any play. Traditionally, runners are allowed to contact or collide with the defensive player at second just as they are on plays at home plate. However, different guidelines exist:

(1) The runner may divert his path in order to crash the pivot man but he must be able to reach the base with some part of his body; Not Satisfied

(2) The roll block is illegal. The runner must not leave the ground and contact the fielder. If, however, he hits the ground first he is allowed to crash into the pivot man provided he does so at the base; Not Satisfied and

(3) The runner may slide through and beyond the base toward left field and be unable to reach the base provided that he does not do so in order to contact the fielder who has retreated to this position off the base to complete the play. In that event, the previous guideline is in effect and the runner must be able to reach the base with some part of his body. Not Satisfied

2002 MLBUM (outdated but the best I can do from a lecture hall):

Rule 6.05(m) was added to the Official Baseball Rules "to penalize the offensive team for deliberate, unwarranted, unsportsmanlike action by the runner in leaving the baseline for the obvious purpose of crashing the pivot man on a double play rather than trying to reach the base." If, in the judgment of the umpire, a runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a fielder attempting to catch a thrown ball or attempting to throw a ball with the obvious intent to deprive the defense of the opportunity to make a double play, the umpire shall declare the runner out for interference and shall also declare the batter-runner out for the interference of his teammate.

GUIDELINES:

In sliding to a base, the runner should be able to reach the base with his hand or foot. A runner who, in the judgment of the umpire, contacts or attempts to make contact with a fielder with a slide or roll block that is not a bona fide effort to reach and stay on the base may be called out for interference and, when appropriate, a double play may be called. Any definite change in direction by the runner to contact the fielder would be considered interference.

If a runner hits the dirt, slides, and rolls, it does not constitute a rolling block unless the runner leaves his feet and makes contact with the fielder before the runner slides on the ground. If the initial contact is with the fielder instead of the ground for the purpose of breaking up a double play, it is a roll block.

Chris, number 2, ... Holliday hits Scutaro after the base ....

Remember, I'm not critiziing Gibson ... TOUGH CALL as it happens ......I'm calling it a bull$h!t slide ......and intentional

I completely agree!

Complete bullcrap slide. Pisses me off and I am not rotting for either team.

[BRUMP]

Evans:

(red emphasis mine)

Professional Notes: The runner should be declared out if he deviates from a direct line to the base and subsequently interferes with the fielder making or completing any play. Traditionally, runners are allowed to contact or collide with the defensive player at second just as they are on plays at home plate. However, different guidelines exist:

(1) The runner may divert his path in order to crash the pivot man but he must be able to reach the base with some part of his body; Not Satisfied

(2) The roll block is illegal. The runner must not leave the ground and contact the fielder. If, however, he hits the ground first he is allowed to crash into the pivot man provided he does so at the base; Not Satisfied and

(3) The runner may slide through and beyond the base toward left field and be unable to reach the base provided that he does not do so in order to contact the fielder who has retreated to this position off the base to complete the play. In that event, the previous guideline is in effect and the runner must be able to reach the base with some part of his body. Not Satisfied

2002 MLBUM (outdated but the best I can do from a lecture hall):

Rule 6.05(m) was added to the Official Baseball Rules "to penalize the offensive team for deliberate, unwarranted, unsportsmanlike action by the runner in leaving the baseline for the obvious purpose of crashing the pivot man on a double play rather than trying to reach the base." If, in the judgment of the umpire, a runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a fielder attempting to catch a thrown ball or attempting to throw a ball with the obvious intent to deprive the defense of the opportunity to make a double play, the umpire shall declare the runner out for interference and shall also declare the batter-runner out for the interference of his teammate.

GUIDELINES:

In sliding to a base, the runner should be able to reach the base with his hand or foot. A runner who, in the judgment of the umpire, contacts or attempts to make contact with a fielder with a slide or roll block that is not a bona fide effort to reach and stay on the base may be called out for interference and, when appropriate, a double play may be called. Any definite change in direction by the runner to contact the fielder would be considered interference.

If a runner hits the dirt, slides, and rolls, it does not constitute a rolling block unless the runner leaves his feet and makes contact with the fielder before the runner slides on the ground. If the initial contact is with the fielder instead of the ground for the purpose of breaking up a double play, it is a roll block.

Chris, number 2, ... Holliday hits Scutaro after the base ....

Remember, I'm not critiziing Gibson ... TOUGH CALL as it happens ......I'm calling it a bull$h!t slide ......and intentional

Jeff he does so but he is on the ground and slid straight through the base. I apologize for the pic quality it's an iPhone screen shot I took during statistics class.

[Guest]

I take it you mean point 3. Digressing, re-watch the video and find the principle point of contact. It's barely beyond the rear edge of 2B. If a car wreck occurs in an intersection with a guy running a red and hits a car making a left turn and the two cars then careen into a hydro pole that causes other damage, you don't hold the car turning left responsible. Given that..."In that event, the previous guideline is in effect and the runner must be able to reach the base with some part of his body"

I don't need to Google the average human wingspan to know that all Holliday could easily touch 2B with some part of his body at the moment contact occurs. In fact, Holliday's arm may even be over the base when contact occurs.

[Thunderheads]

Bobby,

Look ....

(2) The roll block is illegal. The runner must not leave the ground and contact the fielder. If, however, he hits the ground first he is allowed to crash into the pivot man provided he does so at the base

He crashes Scutaro AFTER the base ...

[Thunderheads]

I take it you mean point 3. Digressing, re-watch the video and find the principle point of contact. It's barely beyond the rear edge of 2B. If a car wreck occurs in an intersection with a guy running a red and hits a car making a left turn and the two cars then careen into a hydro pole that causes other damage, you don't hold the car turning left responsible. Given that..."In that event, the previous guideline is in effect and the runner must be able to reach the base with some part of his body"

I don't need to Google the average human wingspan to know that all Holliday could easily touch 2B with some part of his body at the moment contact occurs. In fact, Holliday's arm may even be over the base when contact occurs.

Nope, I'm referring to number 2 .... he makes contact w/ Scutaro afterwards

Look, I'm fine with the no call, I get it ... AGAIN ...it's bushleague, legal or not ....it's crap

[BRUMP]

Bobby,

Look ....

(2) The roll block is illegal. The runner must not leave the ground and contact the fielder. If, however, he hits the ground first he is allowed to crash into the pivot man provided he does so at the base

He crashes Scutaro AFTER the base ...

I understand that but I have him still on the ground at the point of contact. I believe the interpretation means if he hits the ground first an then bounces up he has to hit him at the base. Here the contact was after the base but he was on the ground. Either way I agree it was a bullSH*# slide and more needs to be done to protest middle infielders.

[Guest]

Bobby,

Look ....

(2) The roll block is illegal. The runner must not leave the ground and contact the fielder. If, however, he hits the ground first he is allowed to crash into the pivot man provided he does so at the base

He crashes Scutaro AFTER the base ...

By that logic, any play in which a runner collides with a fielder who is not standing on 2B when they throw is INT.

You can't pick and choose when you want to apply rules.

Different question: if Scutaro's leg doesn't get pinned under Holliday...AKA...if he just topples and gets right back up like 98% of other double plays, do you still have INT?

[Thunderheads]

Bobby,

Look ....

(2) The roll block is illegal. The runner must not leave the ground and contact the fielder. If, however, he hits the ground first he is allowed to crash into the pivot man provided he does so at the base

He crashes Scutaro AFTER the base ...

By that logic, any play in which a runner collides with a fielder who is not standing on 2B when they throw is INT.

You can't pick and choose when you want to apply rules.

Different question: if Scutaro's leg doesn't get pinned under Holliday...AKA...if he just topples and gets right back up like 98% of other double plays, do you still have INT?

Chris, ...

Please go back and re-read everything I've written.

I'm not arguing Gibson's call .....I can understand the call on the field, and I understand where this is technically legal.

I am however, saying it's bushleague and bull$h!t

[Dannytheman]

I watched it a couple times. He never slides until after he is passed the bag. It is a roll slide as he extends his arms to catch his legs and momentum carries him through.

I see it as a breech of 6.05 (2) He was not at the base, he was passed it.

[Thunderheads]

All I'm saying is that there is the contention that they could have enforced 6.05m ..........

[JaxRolo]

All i am saying is that Legal or not it is crap.

[TT49]

I don't think there is any way to grab Intentional Interference here folks nor is this bushleague baseball. Ill address both.

1) A lot of people are quoting 6.05(m). Sure thats the correct rule citation, however, I don't see how we can apply this rule to this play. There are three elements to consider when judging interference. i) Was the runner out of range to touch the base by either hand or foot? ii) Did the runner intentionally and deliberately alter his direction of running in order to create contact on the pivot man? iii) Did the runner do any interfering action, i.e. grabbing, holding, etc

The answer to each of these questions is no. The runner ran a straight line, even going as far to make contact with the base. There were certainly no handsy grabby nonsense by him either. From a strict rules perspective, he merely over slid the bag, which caused legal contact with the fielder.

The second part; is this bushleague baseball: Absolutely not. We need to put our heads in a professional perspective that these are big boys, they can handle the contact, and understand why it happened. Simply put, this is baseball as how it should be played. If Scutaro was on the 1st base side (To the right) of 2nd base and the runner crashed him, dare I say, this post would not even exist and my fingers would have been saved typing this out.

My two cents...enjoy the playoffs!

Also...big shout out to UMP24...Im pretty sure he'd get nailed for plagiarism, but thats okay. :P

[Rich Ives]

It was not a roll block. He was not past the base when he started the slide. The only retaliation was the salute Pagan gave the dugout. The pro players understand the way their version of the game is played. Many here apparently do not.

[Thunderheads]

It was not a roll block. He was not past the base when he started the slide. The only retaliation was the salute Pagan gave the dugout. The pro players understand the way their version of the game is played. Many here apparently do not.

he saluted his own dugout