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beerguy55 last won the day on December 27 2016

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  1. beerguy55

    More on throws deflected out of play

    So if the impetus came from the fielder, rather than the throw, you're saying it wouldn't matter - there would be no "time of error" provision, like what happened in the first Gil article above.
  2. beerguy55

    More on throws deflected out of play

    That's so much easier than trying to define, or redefine, a batted and thrown ball, or, as I've been trying to do, create a new state of being between batted and thrown. I was trying to reconcile by saying a TOT award must mean it's not a batted ball. Rather than just treating it as an exception.
  3. beerguy55


    Though it may be different in other codes, I know that International Federation Softball Rules, as well as Softball Canada, do not have the time of pitch provision for infielder plays. And I am pretty sure ASA does not have it either. From "Official Rules of Softball" - 8-7f f. When the ball is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary lines) or is blocked. EFFECT – Sec. 7f: All runners, including the batter-runner, shall be awarded two bases, and the award will be governed by the position of the runners when the ball left the fielder's hand. Runners may return to touch a base left too soon on a caught fly ball, or a missed base. If two runners are between the same bases, the award is based on the position of the lead runner. EXCEPTION: 1. When a fielder loses possession of the ball such as on an attempted tag, and the ball enters the dead ball area or becomes blocked, each runner is awarded one base from the last base touched at the time the ball entered the dead ball area or became blocked. 2. If a runner touches the next base and returns to his original base, the original base he left is considered the "last base touched'' for purposes of an overthrow award. 3. If the ball becomes blocked due to offensive team equipment, the ball is ruled dead and runners are returned to the last base touched at the time of the blocked ball. If the blocked ball prevented the defense from making a play, the runner being played on is called out. (If this player has scored prior to the blocked ball being ruled, the runner closest to home is called out).
  4. beerguy55

    What's the award?

    It may in many ways be treated like a throw, but it is not a throw. Even the language in the MLBUM does not cite time of "throw" for the base award - it cites time of "drop" or time of "deflection"...and in practice, time of "error". It certainly does separate itself from time of pitch awards, and has the same award as most errant throws, but it's not a throw (keeping in mind that some throws have a time of pitch award) A deflection or a drop or an unintentional kick is not a "throw", even if it might be treated like one. If it makes it easier to consider it a throw, so be it. A THROW is the act of propelling the ball with the hand and arm to a given objective and is to be distinguished, always, from the pitch So I go back to the original point. A batted ball that comes to rest, that is then deflected out of play, requires you to decide one of two things: 1. Take literally that a batted ball remains a batted ball, forever, or until it is possessed by a fielder - and grant two bases time of pitch 2. If the impetus comes from the fielder and not the bat, in your words, consider it "a throw" - and grant two bases time of throw/kick/deflection/error And then you can apply the same exercise to batted balls that are almost at rest.
  5. beerguy55

    What's the award?

    Common sense. At some point a batted or thrown ball stops. You can decide that it stays a batted ball until it is picked up and thrown. Or you can decide that at some point it becomes something else - no longer "batted" but not yet "thrown". MLB addresses part of this with the language in the MLBUM of what happens after a ball has become possessed. If you were to pick up a batted ball with your glove, and then start running towards the infield...then trip and fall and the ball comes out of your glove and rolls out of play...that is not a "thrown" ball, and it's no longer a batted ball. The runners are awarded two bases "time of error" (or drop, or kick, or deflection). Use 8.01(c) because the situation is not specifically addressed in the rules or the manuals, and then apply common sense. A batted ball that comes to rest and then is unintentionally knocked out of play is not a "batted ball" deflected out of play, and it's not a "thrown ball" deflected out of play...it's a "something else" deflected out of play.
  6. Umpire likely can't see the elbows/shoulders and driving through from his angle - he sees OBS and a collision - but the catcher is directly between PU and the runner.
  7. beerguy55

    OBS at Home Plate then Malicious Contact

    Yup. Especially the modern full mask/helmet. If an NHL goalie can pick up 100+ mph slapshots, that get deflected, from less than 40 feet away, without taking off their mask, a catcher can pick up foul balls and throws to the plate. Taking off the mask is often time consuming and distracting and can often be the difference between making a catch or not, whereas leaving the mask on is very rarely the cause of missing a catch. Even for balls straight up it's usually better to just leave it on.
  8. beerguy55

    What's the award?

    So are you invoking 8.01(c) to make the ruling? Under the "Jesus Christ, this is just common sense" approach.
  9. beerguy55

    What's the award?

    Though what you say is, IMO, common sense, I have yet to see any quote from a rule book or an umpire's manual or a case play book that makes this statement (very possible I've just missed it in all these discussions). I've seen the language that @Senor Azul posted above, which either requires possession, or intent...and similar language in an article @Gil had a couple of weeks ago with a play in a MLB game that had two deflections (on a throw in that case)...but nothing "official" to support the position that an unintentional deflection of a stopped, or almost stopped ball, where it is the fielder (without ever possessing it), and not the bat or throw, that is creating the impetus, is two bases from TOD/TOE (error?) instead of TOP/TOT. Do you have that? I agree that at some point you "should" determine that the hit is "over", that it's no longer a "batted ball", and then anything that happens after that is the result of a new action (even without possession), and should be awarded as such - I just haven't seen the language to support it. It would be an 8.01c thingy, would it not?
  10. beerguy55


    Yes, it would be like any other throw where the ball goes out of play - under the fence, over the fence, through the fence, or no fence - two bases from time of throw. Unless there was some specific ground rule to do with that field due to the fence/field being in disrepair - typically that's not the case.
  11. beerguy55

    Fair or Foul

    I'll go one further on this bad bad bad ruling. That same ball that is 1 mm from third base is now foul...but if it is lifted straight up 1 mm off the ground it is "over fair territory", and if touched by the fielder would be fair. So, if the fielder touches it while it is rolling and it contact with the ground, it would be foul...if the ball bounces and is touched in the air it would be fair. Happy trails to you umpires that now not only have to determine foul/fair, but also ground/air. Jeebus Christ.
  12. beerguy55

    Botched Appeal Attempt on R3 Leaving Early

    I suspect that some of this is learned from TV where MLB umpires are calling time as soon as action is relaxed to switch the balls and so you see the full appeal process (watched on the other night in the Mariners/Angels game). If the play is still live...just go touch the damned base.
  13. beerguy55

    Dropped third strike and errors

    The app is right because this is how it is scored in practice. A D3K can only be a WP or a PB if the runner reaches first safely. If you can find any instance of a MLB game scoring both an uncaught third strike AND reaching first base (and first base only) on an error I'd be beyond shocked (eg. throw is wide and pulls F3 off the bag). Any errors would be related to the batter going beyond first base, or another base runner advancing. It is also treated the same if a base runner advances on a pitch in the dirt - if the runner advances, or attempts to advance, AFTER a ball goes in the dirt, it can only be a WP or PB if they reach safely - no error (unless it allows them to go beyond that base), no SB...and if they get thrown out is is NOT a "caught stealing". They can't be caught stealing in a situation where they wouldn't get a stolen base if they reached safely. In that regard, a batter-runner advancing on a D3k is treated the same as a runner advancing on a pitch in the dirt, so the scoring keeps the two scenarios consistent - as they both involve a runner advancing as a result of a pitch that eludes the catcher. By rule, and in principle, we are saying that it was the ball in the dirt that permitted the batter-runner to reach first (as per the language in the rule), or, for example, R2 to reach third base - and that any subsequent opinion to what "would have" happened if the throw had been made or caught cleanly is irrelevant. The passed ball or wild pitch created the situation...you only get to convert it to an out...you don't get to convert it to an error.
  14. beerguy55


    If it's a Bach, it's probably not a picture....might be a Monet though.
  15. beerguy55

    Earned Run

    A passed ball would be unearned. A wild pitch it would be earned. No run shall be earned when the scoring runner’s advance has been aided by an error, a passed ball or defensive interference or obstruction, if in the official scorer’s judgment the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay