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Posts posted by Jimurray

  1. 21 minutes ago, Guest Mike said:

    Runners on first and second, ball hit in front of plate, ump calls infield fly, if fair. Ball lands, untouched, bounces behind plate, ump calls foul ball. What happens to batter. 

    Add a strike to the count unless there were 2 strikes. Batter stays at bat. 

  2. 1 hour ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

    Two years ago I was asked to assume the duty of UIC for our small town rec leagues.  After prayerful consideration I agreed to do it on the condition that I be allowed to remove/replace any of their local rules, as I saw fit.

    Some of these local rules were, others regularly put umpires behind the 8-ball.

    When I was finished with the re-write only 2 of the local rules remained.

    One was the rules I kept was the rule against showing bunt, then swinging away. 

    Ball is dead, batter is out, regardless is ball is fair, foul or missed.  This only applies up to 12u is rec league.


    That doesn’t prevent F5 from getting a broken nose. It just punishes the batter for doing it and hopefully not getting F5’s nose. Seems you should have a “come to Jesus” meeting with the coaches. :)

  3. On 10/22/2018 at 5:52 PM, MidAmUmp said:

    It will be explained in detail at the meetings in January. 

    From the camps I’ve worked this fall, here’s what I can tell you...

    Did the batter hit the ball or did the ball hit the batter? 

    If the batter freezes, give him 1st.

    If the batter turns and the ball hits him, give him 1st. 

    If the batter sticks out a body part and allows himself to get hit by the ball, keep him at the plate, call it a strike.


    If the pitch is not in the batter's box you might allow a freeze or judge that the batter allowed it to hit him:

    "7-4-i.    Awarded if the batter is judged to intentionally make a movement to be hit
    by a pitch, regardless of where the pitch is located; or allows himself to be
    intentionally hit by a pitch that is not thrown within the boundaries of the
    batter's box unless it was not possible to avoid being hit."

    "8-2-d.    When hit by a pitched ball at which the individual is not attempting to strike,
    the ball is immediately dead;
    1) A batter may not make a movement to intentionally get hit by the pitch,
    regardless of the location of the pitch. He must also avoid being hit
    whenever possible, unless the pitch is within the batter's box occupied by
    the batter. If the batter's action is deemed intentional, then:"

  4. Another interesting change in rule 5, Game Misconduct::

    "15-a-2) Call “Time” or employ any other word or phrase or commit any act while
    the ball is in play for the obvious purpose of trying to make the pitcher
    commit a balk or disrupt the pitcher's delivery. If a balk or illegal pitch is
    committed or if the pitch is called a "ball," the call shall be nullified;"

    So, I'm guessing, you can have a strike if the pitcher delivers a strike but if he balks, wild pitches, or misses the strike zone we have a no pitch.

  5. On 10/30/2018 at 12:38 PM, spiffdawg7 said:

    Thanks.  I understand why you can't share.  I am sure there will be plenty or instruction at the clinics and on the hub closer to the season. 

    The new rulebook is now available. While NCAA revised note 4 to require possession of the ball to block a base,  they left note 6 and rule 8-7 unchanged from last year. The video interps of last year, allowing the catcher to block home plate with a body part, not related to his fielding the ball, might or might not be revised.

    From OBSTRUCTION definition:

    "Note 4: On a play at any base, the defensive player must clearly have possession of the
    ball before blocking the base with any part of the defensive player’s body. The umpire
    will call “That’s obstruction” and then signal and call “Time.” The ball is dead
    immediately, and the runner being played on is awarded one base beyond the last base
    he had attained before the obstruction.

    Note 6: The catcher, without the ball in his possession, has no right to block the
    pathway of the runner attempting to score. The base line belongs to the runner and
    the catcher should be there only when he is fielding the ball or when he already has the
    ball in his hand. If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight
    toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball,
    he may be considered “in the act of fielding” a ball. It is entirely up to the judgment of
    the umpire as to whether the fielder is in the act of fielding a ball."

  6. "*6.1.1 SITUATION A: 

    F1 pitches with the toe of his pivot foot (right foot for right-handed pitcher) in contact with the pitcher's plate but his heel is outside a line through the end edge of the plate. He pitches from (a) windup position, or (b) set position. 

    RULING: Legal in (a) and (b), provided that F1's pivot foot is parallel to the pitcher's plate."

    It would make sense to me if the comma was after (a) but I'm not a punctuation expert.

    "*6.1.3 SITUATION A: 

    F1 takes the set position with his pivot foot entirely in front of and parallel with the pitcher's plate. F1's non-pivot foot is entirely in front of his pivot foot (toward home plate) but is not within the plane of each end of the pitcher's plate. 

    RULING: This is legal, since only part of the pivot foot is required to be parallel to the pitcher's plate, within the plane of each end of the pitcher's plate, and in contact with it. The non-pivot foot is required to be entirely in front of the front plane of the pitcher's plate but does not have to be within the plane of each end of the pitcher's plate."

    Luckily the foot does not have a pivot in the instep allowing the part not in contact to not be parallel :)

    "*8.3.2 SITUATION L: 

    R1 is advancing on the pitch and F6 drops to a knee while taking the throw, partially blocking the inside edge of the base. R1 slides to the inside edge of the base, contacts F6's knee, and is then tagged out. The head coach of Team A argues this should be called obstruction. 

    RULING: This is not obstruction as F6 did provide access to part of second base, even though it was not the part of the base that R1 wanted or believed was most advantageous."

    I think this was just an interp before and now it's a caseplay.



  7. 1 hour ago, Double Up said:

    sounds like a dang soccer ruling...   that ball is foul all day and twice on Sundays.  I'll ask him.

    Most of us and Jim Evans would have that ball fair until the MLBUM made this interp this year as addressed in this thread and a CCS blog, also referenced in the thread, about the "change".


  8. 1 minute ago, Double Up said:

    if it’s in regards to a fielder making contact with the ball. If any part of that ball, in your judgement, is on the foul line then it’s a fair ball. Just like if any part of the ball touches the foul line

    What if the ball is stationary and a third of the ball is over but not touching the foul line and 2/3rds is over foul territory and touching foul territory. Evans clinics used to show that ball from various angles and ask the students if foul or fair. Back before the MLBUM interp Evans and his instructors had that ball fair. Did they do that demo at the SD clinic and, if so, what did they have?

  9. 1 minute ago, Double Up said:

    A friend of mine was just at the Jim Evans clinic in SD... He's preparing for a training class in Vero Beach.    

    I can give you his number if interested in speaking with him directly. 


    Would you ask your friend whether they did the ball over the foul line demo at the clinic and whether they are calling it foul or fair?

  10. 42 minutes ago, Richvee said:

    You don't have to agree, but it's more than "local".  When I was doing these levels it was rare to come across any league that allowed it.

    From the USABL rules (which is a bit more than "local" ) 

    35. No slap bunt/slashing is allowed in any 46/60 division. A "slap or slash bunt" is defined as the act of showing bunt and swinging at the pitch instead. A slap or slash bunt automatically be ruled a strike and a dead ball whether the batter makes contact with the ball or not.

    There's plenty "local fools" rules...I don't think this is one of them.

    Well if that is a good intentioned rule what are they doing to protect a pitcher that’s 40’ away. Seems face shields and heart strike protection should be required for the corners and pitcher if the fools were thinking clearly. Or draw a 46 foot arc that no fielder can cross until a batted ball. 

  11. 7 minutes ago, Richvee said:

    The "no slashing" rule is widely used in my area on the small diamond. I'd assume it is in other areas aswell,hence it coming up to vote at LLI so often.  I don't have a problem with the rule at the rec level, but tournament time....it's time to play real baseball....(well...as real as 60' baseball can get.)

    Do the local fools in your area move the pitcher back or prohibit hits up the middle?

  12. 2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

    I hate everything about this ruling.

    This rule effectively tells the umpire to ignore the abandonment rule in this one scenario, to the benefit of the offense.

    This is so much cleaner if the umpire just calls abandonment.  Why wouldn't he?  He would make this call if the runner ran into right field and started doing cartwheels in the previous 17 half innings..."obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base"

    Abandonment should be classed a force out when it's a forced runner (as should leaving the base path to avoid a tag)...why wouldn't it be?    The forced runner made the third out before reaching the base to which he was forced....to me, this is what "forced out" means.

    The fundamental question for me is when does the play become dead?   Once the play is dead the defense couldn't complete a force, and, also, the runner couldn't be called for abandonment.   At that point, they would have to appeal.  So, when does it die?  When the (apparent) winning run scores?  When B/R reaches first?  Both (like on a BB?) When the defense leaves the field?  When the umps get tired of waiting and leave?   IMO, on a hit the play should be live until either all forced bases are touched or all the defense leaves fair territory.   Until then it's a force, not an appeal.   R1 didn't "miss" the base...he never reached it.   But, I really don't care if my opinion is supported...draw a line SOMEWHERE.

    If there is a clear ruling on when a play dies on an apparent game ending run, then we know if it should be an appeal or a force.   Which then leads to...so, if the play is dead, that means the base runner can't correct his error?   ie. he's in the middle of right field and realizes he forgot to touch the base...can he go touch it before someone on the defense completes their appeal?
    Again - so much easier if the ump just called abandonment.


    IMO, even if you're ignoring abandonment, the OP is a force out, accidental or not.  It's not an appeal.   


    A strict semantic read of the rules would indicate that you can only appeal a missed base or one left early. So the putout of a runner before the base would not be covered under the appeal rule. FED and NCAA do reference appeal when a runner fails to advance and touch his base when required but I think that might be sloppy writing.

  13. 1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

    As the noted philosopher Ynigo Montoya would say, “I don’t think that rule means what you think it means.” Here’s the rule from the beginning and when it is read in toto I think you will find there is no conflict.

    2017-18 NCAA rule 6-5

    Dead Ball—Play Suspended

    SECTION 5. Time shall be called by the umpire and play is suspended when:

    e. A player or coach requests time for a substitution, a charged offensive or defensive conference, for equipment changes, or for similar cause.


    I take that to mean umpires are directed to call time (to suspend play) when there is a substitution; when there is a charged conference; or for similar cause. The following rule you cite (6-5f-5) just tells us that a substitution is not a charged conference even though play is suspended (time is out).

    The wording of the 2015 rule would direct you to call time in those instances. 

    “e. A player or coach requests time for a substitution, a legal conference with the pitcher, for equipment changes or for similar cause;
    A.R. A conference is a legal meeting between the player and the coach or a nonplaying representative. “

    Why change to clarify that time for a sub is a conference although only on defense since they left 6-5f-5 in, allowing no limit on offensive time outs for subs. 

    What say your BRD?

  14. 38 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

    Hanging around pondering is sending a signal to the defense.  They think it's over - don't tell them it isn't.

    While you don't want to telegraph an appeal sit the umpires do have to see certain things. The PU can't walk off in NCAA and OBR if the Batter is dancing with his teammates. The Lugnuts umpires probably started leaving too soon. In my made up OP if I start leaving, thinking that there will be no touch of 2B and as F8 gets close someone on his team yells to touch 2B and he does I would rather be there to see that.

  15. 18 minutes ago, Guest BigVic said:

    A batter may come to a bunting stance, then go back to a batting stance and take a full swing.

    However, may a batter come to a bunting stance and instead of "tapping" the ball, take a half swing while in the bunting stance?

    I see in the little league rules under Rule 2.00 Definition of terms a Bunt is ...tapped slowly.  Later in the in the TEE BALL note it says a "half swing" is not allowed.  This reference is for TEE BALL only.

    So my question is that a half swing is not "tapping" the ball, this means that it is not allowed and the batter will be called back and given a strike?


    It's not allowed in TEE Ball. It is allowed otherwise unless local fools have made up some additional rules.

    "Baseball: A BUNT is a batted ball not swung at, but intentionally met with the bat and tapped slowly. The mere holding of the bat in the strike zone is not
    an attempted bunt. (Tee Ball: Bunts are not permitted. Batters are not permitted to take a half-swing. If the umpire feels the batter is taking a half-swing, the batter
    may be called back to swing again.)"

  16. My 2011 BRD has this statement regarding NCAA subs: "When an offensive substitute enters the game. do not charge an offensive trip even if team members confer. (6-5f-5). Hint @Senor Azul who has a more current one.

    But in 2017 NCAA added 6-5-e, stating that "6-5-e Clarifies that requests for a substitute constitutes an offensive
    or defensive conference".

    "6-5-e.    A player or coach requests time for a substitution, a charged offensive or defensive conference, for equipment changes, or for similar cause."

    But NCAA left 6-5f-5 in the book:
    "(5) An offensive meeting shall not be charged if time is called for the purpose of making an offensive substitution, attending to an injured player or making an equipment change."

    It would be rare to see a defensive sub during the half inning other than one involving the pitcher but if it did happen it would seem we should charge a trip. If the coach had used his 3 trips already would we allow the sub and pull the pitcher?

  17. On 6/11/2018 at 9:39 PM, zm1283 said:

    Surprised this is deemed legal since it seems it is an extension on the home plate side. 

    It appears this rule change will allow the area for shaggers but not the rest. Time for a little construction at the Clemson stadium. Make it part of the real dugout.

    "1.16b To prohibit uniformed team personnel, coaches and extra on-deck hitters from standing or sitting in the dugout extension area or dead-ball area on the home plate side of the dugout during play. Rationale To enhance the safety of bat/ball persons who are supposed to be in this area by restricting coaches and team personnel from entering these areas to observe the game."

  18. Perhaps @Double Up is referring to the change of wording in the MLBUM which happened around 2013:

    The MLBUM used to say ignore F3 playing in foul territory while holding a runner on unless someone complained and then enforce the rule equally.  I noticed the change in 2013 to: 

    "There is no penalty specified for violation other than the first baseman shall be instructed to keep both feet in fair territory if brought to the attention of the umpire, or-if blatant or recurring violation-upon immediate direction of the umpire."

  19. 58 minutes ago, johnpatrick said:

    I'll give you my take on it, but I'd be the first to admit that I could be wrong.  MiLB, as you know, uses OBR with a few exceptions.  Those exceptions are, for the most part, minor and identified by reference to the National Association in the OBR which refers to MiLB.  Those few rules that are specific to the National Association are clarified for MiLB in the Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (it'll always be the PBUC manual to me...semantics).  The vast majority of OBR rules are the same and, I believe, the interpretations are the same for MiLB and MLB.  The MiLBUM is more extensive.  I have the 2017 MLBUM and for the most part I see procedural differences between the two.  I'd be interested in knowing of any different playing rule interpretations between the two that aren't identified by National Association rule differences.

    To answer your question, I believe both apply to each league for playing rules.  And yes, there are no other official interpretations for MLB.

    So while the Wendelstedt school currently teaches to nullify the play when it is discovered that a fielder, other than F3, was in foul territory before a play, we don’t know what the Umpire School teaches and you what might or might not infer from the PBUC  interp. But the OP asked if the rule was still enforced and we don’t have an answer for him. Luckily it should not be real world problem. 

  20. 27 minutes ago, Ump29 said:

    Under OBR the rule says "when the ball is put in play". This is a specific time. At any other time a player could be positioned in foul territory without penalty.

    While that is what the rule says the interps seem to require it any time the ball is ready for play (pitcher ready to pitch). Why would the MLBUM specifically allow a fielder to go into foul territory, being first required to be in fair to make the ball live,  to back up an appeal only? Any other attempt to gain an advantage by going foul is either a nullification of the play or a judgement of advantage gained or a do not do that depending on the latest word of authority. 

  21. 17 minutes ago, johnpatrick said:

    OBR.  We have two different situations going here.  A missing fielder is a do-over...the only one in baseball.  A fielder positioned in foul territory (in the bathroom would not qualify :>) ) would be ignored unless brought to the attention of the umpire or blatant.  Senior Azul posted the PBUC interpretation above.

    It would seem that PBUC/MLBUM only give that leeway to the first baseman. Do you have a cite that extends that to any fielder? 

  22. 32 minutes ago, johnpatrick said:

    Wendelstedt, although an excellent resource, is NOT an official interpretation of OBR.  The PBUC manual and MLBUM are the only "official" interpretations.

    Both pubs do not address the issue. We, with the help of @Senor Azul cites discussed it here: 

    As of 2016 it appears the BRD no longer thinks there is any conflict and only cites Wendelstedt. And Rich Marazzi seems to have MLB connections.