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FleasOf1000Camels

Does Pitcher Have to Pitch Bottom of 1st

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12u tournament, OBR with the normal 12u overrides.  There are limits on number on innings a pitcher can work in a day and for the entire weekend, 1 pitch is counted as an inning.

Lineup cards are exchanged prior to game, and umpire keeps record of pitchers.

HT is severely outmatched, gives up 13 runs in top of 1st.

With the game clearly in hand, VT wants to save their pitching and change pitchers before the HT's first at bat.

Can they do this, or must the listed pitcher pitch to at least one batter?

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Pretty sure OBR would mandate whoever is F1 on the lineup card to pitch to at least one batter. I'd probably be fine with him not pitching if the HT coach agreed though.

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35 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

12u tournament, OBR with the normal 12u overrides.  There are limits on number on innings a pitcher can work in a day and for the entire weekend, 1 pitch is counted as an inning.

Lineup cards are exchanged prior to game, and umpire keeps record of pitchers.

HT is severely outmatched, gives up 13 runs in top of 1st.

With the game clearly in hand, VT wants to save their pitching and change pitchers before the HT's first at bat.

Can they do this, or must the listed pitcher pitch to at least one batter?

Pitcher named on the lineup card must pitch.  Pretty clear in the rules.

 

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3 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

12u tournament, OBR with the normal 12u overrides.  There are limits on number on innings a pitcher can work in a day and for the entire weekend, 1 pitch is counted as an inning.

Lineup cards are exchanged prior to game, and umpire keeps record of pitchers.

HT is severely outmatched, gives up 13 runs in top of 1st.

With the game clearly in hand, VT wants to save their pitching and change pitchers before the HT's first at bat.

Can they do this, or must the listed pitcher pitch to at least one batter?

 

The OBR rule says the pitcher on the lineup card must pitch until the first batter is put out, or reaches base.  So, you're up 13-0.  Give the first batter an IBB, without throwing any pitches.   Then he can change positions or come out of the game.  And, since he never threw a pitch, you should be able to avoid counting it as an inning pitched.

 

Otherwise, he has to pitch to the first batter - unless the ill or injured...so, if the pitcher can manage to throw up a lung, or develop a limp, he can probably get out of it, but he won't be playing that game, and might raise eyebrows if he's pitching the next game.

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1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

 

The OBR rule says the pitcher on the lineup card must pitch until the first batter is put out, or reaches base.  So, you're up 13-0.  Give the first batter an IBB, without throwing any pitches.   Then he can change positions or come out of the game.  And, since he never threw a pitch, you should be able to avoid counting it as an inning pitched.

 

Otherwise, he has to pitch to the first batter - unless the ill or injured...so, if the pitcher can manage to throw up a lung, or develop a limp, he can probably get out of it, but he won't be playing that game, and might raise eyebrows if he's pitching the next game.

The walk goes on the pitcher's record which would show as 1 batter faced - one IBB.  9.02(c )(2) and (11)

He pitched in my book.

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So what's the penalty if he doesn't? I know in NFHS, the penalty is he can not pitch in that game at all. So in this scenario no real penalty. But I do not know what the penalty is in OBR.

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5 minutes ago, NorthTexasUmp said:

So what's the penalty if he doesn't? I know in NFHS, the penalty is he can not pitch in that game at all. So in this scenario no real penalty. But I do not know what the penalty is in OBR.

Ejection

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Just for the record, we told coach since he was listed as pitcher on the lineup card he had to pitch to one batter, unless he was injured or ill.

VTHC gave us a very mild argument (hell, he was up 13-0), but I'm reasonably certain he knew all along we were right.

Since one pitch was considered an inning of work, he left the starter in for a full inning, he struck out the side on 11 pitches.

 

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4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Ejection

Which would then probably lead to him missing the next game as well 

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13 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Which would then probably lead to him missing the next game as well 

under LL rules yes, however not under OBR which the OP said was the rule set in effect

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19 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Which would then probably lead to him missing the next game as well 

 

6 hours ago, stkjock said:

under LL rules yes, however not under OBR which the OP said was the rule set in effect

But we are also talking youth ball which usually carries the extra game.

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On 11/27/2017 at 1:35 PM, Rich Ives said:

The walk goes on the pitcher's record which would show as 1 batter faced - one IBB.  9.02(c )(2) and (11)

He pitched in my book.

Depends on the exact rule wording.  I know some leagues have both pitch counts and inning limits.   You can only throw four innings, even if you've only thrown 20 pitches, for example.  Typically, the wording in those rules is "Delivery of a single pitch in an inning counts for an inning" or something like that.  If you don't deliver a pitch (like an IBB) you haven't "pitched" an inning yet....technically - your scoring point aside.

The rule is there to both protect pitchers, and to encourage teams to develop pitchers.  Not counting an inning here with an IBB still maintains the spirit of those rules...and, IMO, maintains the spirit of the rule of making the pitcher on the lineup face one batter.

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5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Depends on the exact rule wording.  I know some leagues have both pitch counts and inning limits.   You can only throw four innings, even if you've only thrown 20 pitches, for example.  Typically, the wording in those rules is "Delivery of a single pitch in an inning counts for an inning" or something like that.  If you don't deliver a pitch (like an IBB) you haven't "pitched" an inning yet....technically - your scoring point aside.

The rule is there to both protect pitchers, and to encourage teams to develop pitchers.  Not counting an inning here with an IBB still maintains the spirit of those rules...and, IMO, maintains the spirit of the rule of making the pitcher on the lineup face one batter.

The IBB has to go on some pitcher's record. Some pitcher has to be credited with the batter faced.  He was the pitcher of record when it happened.    If not the starter then who?  You can't charge them to a pitcher that isn't in the game.

Deliver of a pitch is only one criteria.

He pitched. 

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14 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

The IBB has to go on some pitcher's record. Some pitcher has to be credited with the batter faced.  He was the pitcher of record when it happened.    If not the starter then who?  You can't charge them to a pitcher that isn't in the game.

Deliver of a pitch is only one criteria.

He pitched. 

Why you can't reconcile the two?  

He's the pitcher of record, he gets a BB, and might even be charged with a run against no innings pitched.  But he didn't throw a pitch, so he doesn't get charged with an inning for the purposes of "innings pitched" limits.

 

This is analogous to the MLB rules around a consecutive games streak.  If a player enters only as a pinch runner, his streak ends.  If he gets ejected from a game before he has an at bat, or plays half an inning of defense, his streak doesn't end, but the game is not added to the streak. 

In both cases he statistically is recorded as a "game played" (as a pinch runner he may even have a SB or a R - as a defender who didn't complete the half inning before being ejected he may have a PO, an A, or an E), but it does not count for the purposes of the consecutive games played streak.

Likewise, I see no reason why the pitcher can't be statistically recorded as having a pitching appearance (one batter, iBB, 0 or 1 earned runs), but not be charged for the purposes of pitch and inning limits.

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9 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Why you can't reconcile the two?  

He's the pitcher of record, he gets a BB, and might even be charged with a run against no innings pitched.  But he didn't throw a pitch, so he doesn't get charged with an inning for the purposes of "innings pitched" limits.

 

This is analogous to the MLB rules around a consecutive games streak.  If a player enters only as a pinch runner, his streak ends.  If he gets ejected from a game before he has an at bat, or plays half an inning of defense, his streak doesn't end, but the game is not added to the streak. 

In both cases he statistically is recorded as a "game played" (as a pinch runner he may even have a SB or a R - as a defender who didn't complete the half inning before being ejected he may have a PO, an A, or an E), but it does not count for the purposes of the consecutive games played streak.

Likewise, I see no reason why the pitcher can't be statistically recorded as having a pitching appearance (one batter, iBB, 0 or 1 earned runs), but not be charged for the purposes of pitch and inning limits.

He was the pitcher of record when the IBB was issued. He HAS to be credited with pitching. No on else could be. Someone was he pitcher. He was.

Another example: If he entered an inning with two out and picked off a runner without delivering a pitch he gets credit for 1/3 inning pitched but no pitches thrown.  He pitched here too. Delivering a pitch is one way of crediting an inning but not the only way. 

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13 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

He was the pitcher of record when the IBB was issued. He HAS to be credited with pitching. No on else could be. Someone was he pitcher. He was.

Another example: If he entered an inning with two out and picked off a runner without delivering a pitch he gets credit for 1/3 inning pitched but no pitches thrown.  He pitched here too. Delivering a pitch is one way of crediting an inning but not the only way. 

And neither of these dispute anything I said.

There are two purposes to the same set of stats, and those stats can be recorded differently for different scenarios.

It is very easy to track a pitching appearance statistically, for posterity and completeness, and to exclude that same appearance for a specific purpose - ie. tracking a pitcher's inning/pitch count for youth pitchers, which meets a different intent - namely to reduce injury.   If he didn't throw a pitch, no inning...if he did, one inning.   There may be reasons you want to record it, but an inability to reconcile two disparate scenarios is not one of them.

 

Again, not all "games played" count for "consecutive games played" metrics.  The same stat recorded differently for two different purposes.   You can appear in 101 straight games, but if game 51 was only a pinch run appearance, you only have two 50 consecutive game streaks....even if that pinch run appearance resulted in three stolen bases and a run scored.   As well, you can have a 20 game hitting streak but actually play 21 or more consecutive games to achieve it - if you have a game where you have only four plate appearances with four walks your hitting streak gets to live another day, even though you played a full nine inning game without getting a hit...even if they were all with bases loaded and resulted in 4 RBI's.  I understand the reasons, but those are clear cases where a stat is recorded for one scenario, but ignored for another.  

 

And though the pitcher picking off a runner gets 1/3 IP, he didn't "pitch" as a pitch is a ball delivered by the pitcher to the batter.  And the purpose of youth inning/pitch counts is to protect pitchers, and to encourage the development of other pitchers, by reducing the number of pitches they throw.   Not warm ups, not any other kind of throw to other players, not bean bag tosses...pitches.

 

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10 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

And neither of these dispute anything I said.

There are two purposes to the same set of stats, and those stats can be recorded differently for different scenarios.

It is very easy to track a pitching appearance statistically, for posterity and completeness, and to exclude that same appearance for a specific purpose - ie. tracking a pitcher's inning/pitch count for youth pitchers, which meets a different intent - namely to reduce injury.   If he didn't throw a pitch, no inning...if he did, one inning.   There may be reasons you want to record it, but an inability to reconcile two disparate scenarios is not one of them.

 

Again, not all "games played" count for "consecutive games played" metrics.  The same stat recorded differently for two different purposes.   You can appear in 101 straight games, but if game 51 was only a pinch run appearance, you only have two 50 consecutive game streaks....even if that pinch run appearance resulted in three stolen bases and a run scored.   As well, you can have a 20 game hitting streak but actually play 21 or more consecutive games to achieve it - if you have a game where you have only four plate appearances with four walks your hitting streak gets to live another day, even though you played a full nine inning game without getting a hit...even if they were all with bases loaded and resulted in 4 RBI's.  I understand the reasons, but those are clear cases where a stat is recorded for one scenario, but ignored for another.  

 

And though the pitcher picking off a runner gets 1/3 IP, he didn't "pitch" as a pitch is a ball delivered by the pitcher to the batter.  And the purpose of youth inning/pitch counts is to protect pitchers, and to encourage the development of other pitchers, by reducing the number of pitches they throw.   Not warm ups, not any other kind of throw to other players, not bean bag tosses...pitches.

 

You show up in the box score if all you do is pitch run. You were in the game. Maybe you even scored a run. Or stole a base. Or made an out The streak is a whole different animal. You can't deny that you were in the game.

This isn't a protect the pitcher issue. It's an eligibility issue. Different purpose.

So you're the TD. Did he pitch? (If you say no I'll ask you who did. Someone had to be the pitcher)  

I say yes - even if it's my team.

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On 11/28/2017 at 3:48 PM, BT_Blue said:

 

But we are also talking youth ball which usually carries the extra game.

I don't think youth ball can be generalized in this way.  

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