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Jimurray

Game 5 ALDS DTK punch out

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Did I see a punch out on an uncaught third strike on the last out in the bottom of the ninth inning in the Yankee - Indians game? Did not look good. Batter could have walked to 1B but luckily he was ready to just argue. Not a game changer but makes the PU susceptable to the ready to hit the restaurant cliches.

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I thought PU stood around a while. Like you say, BR was more interested in arguing than running. Watching replays of the last pitch, seems only Todd Fraiser noticed. Todd was pointing and shouting "TAG HIM".

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I was yelling at the TV for Sanchez to tag him and kept watching the batter to see what he'd do.  

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8 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Did I see a punch out on an uncaught third strike on the last out in the bottom of the ninth inning in the Yankee - Indians game?

 

I doubt if anyone here knows whether you saw this.  If someone does, well, (a) it's TMI; and (b) there's nothing wrong with that.

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1 hour ago, stkjock said:

I was yelling at the TV for Sanchez to tag him and kept watching the batter to see what he'd do.  

I didn't see an out signaled on TV but once the batter did not attempt 1B in a "reasonable" amount of time he can be called out even though he had not left the circle.

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12 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Did I see a punch out on an uncaught third strike on the last out in the bottom of the ninth inning in the Yankee - Indians game? Did not look good. Batter could have walked to 1B but luckily he was ready to just argue. Not a game changer but makes the PU susceptable to the ready to hit the restaurant cliches.

Yep you did.

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14 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Did I see a punch out on an uncaught third strike on the last out in the bottom of the ninth inning in the Yankee - Indians game? Did not look good. Batter could have walked to 1B but luckily he was ready to just argue. Not a game changer but makes the PU susceptable to the ready to hit the restaurant cliches.

The PU is a rules expert; so I'm going to give him some benefit of the doubt on this one.  (I don't say that he's a rules expert solely because he's an MLB umpire; I say it because he is recognized as a "go to" guy on rules within the professional ranks.  He taught the rules at umpire school for several years in the 1990s.)  I watched the game.  Your second post, @Jimurray, is 100% correct.  According to the MLB and MiLBUD umpire manuals...if the runner does not attempt to advance to first base after a reasonable amount of time, he can be called out.  (This is in ADDITION, to the part of the rule interpretation about the batter losing his right to advance to first base once he leaves the dirt circle around home plate.  Everyone, I think, knows about the dirt circle interpretation, but they forget the "reasonable amount of time" interpretation.)  Furthermore, the umpire manuals give the umpire a lot of leeway to determine what was is a "reasonable amount of time".

Nelson called the punch out (a pitch he had been calling all game...but that's beside the point), and then he stood there and engaged with the B/R who decided to argue.  And, actually, when he saw that the ball was not caught by F2, he actually took several steps forward (toward the mound) in case a tag attempt was made.  But once the B/R stood there and argued, he lost his right to advance.  I would bet a million, billion dollars (as my daughter used to say) that had the B/R attempted to advance (after having stood there and argued) that Mr. Nelson would have emphatically come out in front of the plate and called him "out".  In other words, I don't think there was any "luck".  I think Mr. Nelson did not leave the field until he had decided that the B/R had lost the right to advance to first base.

My only criticism, and what I think he should do differently in the future, is that he should have, IMHO, signaled the "out" once he had determined that the B/R was no longer entitled to run to first base. 

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6 minutes ago, ousafe said:

Doesn't the punch out communicate the out call?  

BTW, what is the MLB plate mechanic for D3K?

 

1.  No

2.  On a swinging strike, point with the right arm out (fully extended) to the right to indicate that the batter swung.  The umpire can either (1) hold it there until a tag attempt is made (then he would signal out (for a successful tag) or safe, while saying "no tag" (for an unsuccessful tag); or (2) he can give the safe signal while yelling "no catch! no catch!" to indicate that the pitch was not caught.  I have seen both mechanics used.  

On a called third strike that is uncaught, after giving the strike three mechanic I would recommend signalling safe while saying "no catch! no catch!"...unless it is painfully obvious that the pitch was not caught (such as in yesterday's playoff game where the ball fell out of the catcher's glove (which was at F2's eye level) all the way to the ground and rolled on the ground.)

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42 minutes ago, lawump said:

The PU is a rules expert; so I'm going to give him some benefit of the doubt on this one.  (I don't say that he's a rules expert solely because he's an MLB umpire; I say it because he is recognized as a "go to" guy on rules within the professional ranks.  He taught the rules at umpire school for several years in the 1990s.)  I watched the game.  Your second post, @Jimurray, is 100% correct.  According to the MLB and MiLBUD umpire manuals...if the runner does not attempt to advance to first base after a reasonable amount of time, he can be called out.  (This is in ADDITION, to the part of the rule interpretation about the batter losing his right to advance to first base once he leaves the dirt circle around home plate.  Everyone, I think, knows about the dirt circle interpretation, but they forget the "reasonable amount of time" interpretation.)  Furthermore, the umpire manuals give the umpire a lot of leeway to determine what was is a "reasonable amount of time".

Nelson called the punch out (a pitch he had been calling all game...but that's beside the point), and then he stood there and engaged with the B/R who decided to argue.  And, actually, when he saw that the ball was not caught by F2, he actually took several steps forward (toward the mound) in case a tag attempt was made.  But once the B/R stood there and argued, he lost his right to advance.  I would bet a million, billion dollars (as my daughter used to say) that had the B/R attempted to advance (after having stood there and argued) that Mr. Nelson would have emphatically come out in front of the plate and called him "out".  In other words, I don't think there was any "luck".  I think Mr. Nelson did not leave the field until he had decided that the B/R had lost the right to advance to first base.

My only criticism, and what I think he should do differently in the future, is that he should have, IMHO, signaled the "out" once he had determined that the B/R was no longer entitled to run to first base. 

The pitch was a ball on brooks but I can buy a marginal strike. But in my amateur opinion the timing was quick and a marginal strike that was dropped would normally be balled. 

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1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

The pitch was a ball on brooks but I can buy a marginal strike. But in my amateur opinion the timing was quick and a marginal strike that was dropped would normally be balled. 

Fair points!

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1 hour ago, lawump said:

The PU is a rules expert; so I'm going to give him some benefit of the doubt on this one.  (I don't say that he's a rules expert solely because he's an MLB umpire; I say it because he is recognized as a "go to" guy on rules within the professional ranks.  He taught the rules at umpire school for several years in the 1990s.)  I watched the game.  Your second post, @Jimurray, is 100% correct.  According to the MLB and MiLBUD umpire manuals...if the runner does not attempt to advance to first base after a reasonable amount of time, he can be called out.  (This is in ADDITION, to the part of the rule interpretation about the batter losing his right to advance to first base once he leaves the dirt circle around home plate.  Everyone, I think, knows about the dirt circle interpretation, but they forget the "reasonable amount of time" interpretation.)  Furthermore, the umpire manuals give the umpire a lot of leeway to determine what was is a "reasonable amount of time".

Nelson called the punch out (a pitch he had been calling all game...but that's beside the point), and then he stood there and engaged with the B/R who decided to argue.  And, actually, when he saw that the ball was not caught by F2, he actually took several steps forward (toward the mound) in case a tag attempt was made.  But once the B/R stood there and argued, he lost his right to advance.  I would bet a million, billion dollars (as my daughter used to say) that had the B/R attempted to advance (after having stood there and argued) that Mr. Nelson would have emphatically come out in front of the plate and called him "out".  In other words, I don't think there was any "luck".  I think Mr. Nelson did not leave the field until he had decided that the B/R had lost the right to advance to first base.

My only criticism, and what I think he should do differently in the future, is that he should have, IMHO, signaled the "out" once he had determined that the B/R was no longer entitled to run to first base. 

I have no doubt that Nelson would have called the arguing batter out if he then advanced. The luck involved would be him not arguing and advancing to 1B right after the NY catcher glanced at him standing in the box and went out to celebrate. I don't think the NY catcher knew there was a punchout but if the batter had made it to 1B NY would have tried to hang their hat on the punchout. It wouldn't fly but Doug Eddings comes to mind. Not exactly the same but probably a controversy.

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2 hours ago, lawump said:

The PU is a rules expert; so I'm going to give him some benefit of the doubt on this one.  (I don't say that he's a rules expert solely because he's an MLB umpire; I say it because he is recognized as a "go to" guy on rules within the professional ranks.  He taught the rules at umpire school for several years in the 1990s.)  I watched the game.  Your second post, @Jimurray, is 100% correct.  According to the MLB and MiLBUD umpire manuals...if the runner does not attempt to advance to first base after a reasonable amount of time, he can be called out.  (This is in ADDITION, to the part of the rule interpretation about the batter losing his right to advance to first base once he leaves the dirt circle around home plate.  Everyone, I think, knows about the dirt circle interpretation, but they forget the "reasonable amount of time" interpretation.)  Furthermore, the umpire manuals give the umpire a lot of leeway to determine what was is a "reasonable amount of time".

Nelson called the punch out (a pitch he had been calling all game...but that's beside the point), and then he stood there and engaged with the B/R who decided to argue.  And, actually, when he saw that the ball was not caught by F2, he actually took several steps forward (toward the mound) in case a tag attempt was made.  But once the B/R stood there and argued, he lost his right to advance.  I would bet a million, billion dollars (as my daughter used to say) that had the B/R attempted to advance (after having stood there and argued) that Mr. Nelson would have emphatically come out in front of the plate and called him "out".  In other words, I don't think there was any "luck".  I think Mr. Nelson did not leave the field until he had decided that the B/R had lost the right to advance to first base.

My only criticism, and what I think he should do differently in the future, is that he should have, IMHO, signaled the "out" once he had determined that the B/R was no longer entitled to run to first base. 

Jeff Nelson ran the Brinkman/Froemming Umpire School.  And he was also the rules instructor.  And he was an outstanding instructor as he made things crystal clear on things I didn't understand or wasn't aware of.

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20 minutes ago, stkjock said:

I don't buy the Altuve or this OPs lodged ball hypothesis. The fielders intentionally put the ball in and could take it out of the pocket. The umpires in both those plays didn't consider it lodged also. The author also is unaware of the MLBUM requirement to advance in a reasonable amount of time. But I would say Nelson escaped a goat rope if the batter had tried to advance.

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7 hours ago, lawump said:

The PU is a rules expert; so I'm going to give him some benefit of the doubt on this one.  (I don't say that he's a rules expert solely because he's an MLB umpire; I say it because he is recognized as a "go to" guy on rules within the professional ranks.  He taught the rules at umpire school for several years in the 1990s.)  I watched the game.  Your second post, @Jimurray, is 100% correct.  According to the MLB and MiLBUD umpire manuals...if the runner does not attempt to advance to first base after a reasonable amount of time, he can be called out.  (This is in ADDITION, to the part of the rule interpretation about the batter losing his right to advance to first base once he leaves the dirt circle around home plate.  Everyone, I think, knows about the dirt circle interpretation, but they forget the "reasonable amount of time" interpretation.)  Furthermore, the umpire manuals give the umpire a lot of leeway to determine what was is a "reasonable amount of time".

Nelson called the punch out (a pitch he had been calling all game...but that's beside the point), and then he stood there and engaged with the B/R who decided to argue.  And, actually, when he saw that the ball was not caught by F2, he actually took several steps forward (toward the mound) in case a tag attempt was made.  But once the B/R stood there and argued, he lost his right to advance.  I would bet a million, billion dollars (as my daughter used to say) that had the B/R attempted to advance (after having stood there and argued) that Mr. Nelson would have emphatically come out in front of the plate and called him "out".  In other words, I don't think there was any "luck".  I think Mr. Nelson did not leave the field until he had decided that the B/R had lost the right to advance to first base.

My only criticism, and what I think he should do differently in the future, is that he should have, IMHO, signaled the "out" once he had determined that the B/R was no longer entitled to run to first base. 

I am going to eat crow...I went home tonight and reviewed the 2017 MLBUM and it does not have the "reasonable time" language that is found in the MiLBUD Manual.  Thus, only the rule found in the actual rule book would apply...the runner is out when he leaves the dirt circle.  I thought this "reasonable time" language was in both manuals, but it appears I was mistaken.  I think Mr. Nelson got this wrong.  Furthermore, the analysis at closecallsports.com (which is usually spot on) says he got it wrong.  Close Calls says Nelson could have awarded the B/R two bases as a result of F2 putting the ball in his pocket.  I now say he should have awarded the B/R second base.

Mea culpa.

http://www.closecallsports.com/2017/10/yankees-end-indians-alds-on-uncaught.html

(sorry @Jimurray, I didn't see that you had posted the link before I posted it (again).)

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1 hour ago, lawump said:

I am going to eat crow...I went home tonight and reviewed the 2017 MLBUM and it does not have the "reasonable time" language that is found in the MiLBUD Manual.  Thus, only the rule found in the actual rule book would apply...the runner is out when he leaves the dirt circle.  I thought this "reasonable time" language was in both manuals, but it appears I was mistaken.  I think Mr. Nelson got this wrong.  Furthermore, the analysis at closecallsports.com (which is usually spot on) says he got it wrong.  Close Calls says Nelson could have awarded the B/R two bases as a result of F2 putting the ball in his pocket.  I now say he should have awarded the B/R second base.

Mea culpa.

http://www.closecallsports.com/2017/10/yankees-end-indians-alds-on-uncaught.html

(sorry @Jimurray, I didn't see that you had posted the link before I posted it (again).)

You need to spit that crow out. The exact same language, "reasonable amount of time, .....lingers" is in the 2017 MLBUM. Lodging a ball voluntarily in your pocket might be a lodged ball but no official interp exists and the actual umpire did not rule a lodged ball in both cases referenced in CCS. BTW they have been wrong before and never retracted/corrected their unofficial interps. Not that I'm ranting. I like what they do. But  sometimes you gotta say I was wrong. Which is not a virtue of this or most interweb venue participants except for you and me and a few others, and in this case you being wrong about you being mistaken. If you have a relationship with a great umpire, Jeff Nelson, I would postulate that upon asking him what happened, he would say, in the heat of the moment I lost timing, did not see the DTK, and when I saw the game participants were acting as if, as @Rich Ives says, the game was over. I saw no need to give an out signal or do anything when everyone agreed it was done. I escaped a bullet.

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8 hours ago, Jimurray said:

You need to spit that crow out. The exact same language, "reasonable amount of time, .....lingers" is in the 2017 MLBUM.

Why do I keep not finding it???  ARRRR.  Can you give me the page cite so I can feel really stupid for not finding it in the MLBUM as I lay in bed last night?  LOL

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12 minutes ago, lawump said:

Why do I keep not finding it???  ARRRR.  Can you give me the page cite so I can feel really stupid for not finding it in the MLBUM as I lay in bed last night?  LOL

maybe you should ask your para-legal to do the research...  :lol:

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1 hour ago, stkjock said:

maybe you should ask your para-legal to do the research...  :lol:

Except my paralegal is my wife and if she knew I was doing "umpire stuff" at work...there'd be hell to pay at home.  LOL

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1 hour ago, lawump said:

Why do I keep not finding it???  ARRRR.  Can you give me the page cite so I can feel really stupid for not finding it in the MLBUM as I lay in bed last night?  LOL

Page 3, Interp#10 Abandoning Basepaths (Including after third strike not caught)

Somebody named @johnnyg08 copied the text to the comments to the spurious analysis.

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1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Page 3, Interp#10 Abandoning Basepaths (Including after third strike not caught)

Somebody named @johnnyg08 copied the text to the comments to the spurious analysis.

Thanks...I'll check it out tonight!

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