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VolUmp

FED — OBS Case Play Redux

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Gentlemen,

I’m going to re-post my FED OBS Case Play with a better and clearer OP and try to find a consensus on the four separate rulings ... a “poll” if you will ...

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FED Game.  No outs.   R2. (Man on 2nd)

Batter hits clean base hit in the left-center gap. R2 runs into F6, gathers himself, and continues running. BU calls and points, “THAT’s OBS.”

BR rounds 1B and heads for 2B when F9 throws to F2 at the plate on one hop. 

R2 rounded 3B and was waved in to score, and was beaten by the ball by nearly two steps.

Please make your complete rulings in all four of the following scenarios including outs (or not), penalties (or not), and runner placement(s).

In all four cases, assume that at the conclusion of the play, BU judged that R2 would have scored on the base hit were it not for the OBS by F6.

 

A — R2, seeing he has no chance at scoring, jumps sideways to avoid F2’s tag.  No tag is made and PU judges R2 was still in the baseline, but R2 never touched the plate.  He ran directly to the dugout.

B — R2 led with his shoulder and ran over F2 touching the plate after the collision.

C — R2 jumped over F2, who was down on one knee preparing to make the tag, and touched the plate.  R2 made no contact with F2.

D — R2 ran hard right to within one step of F2 without sliding, then pulled up to try to stop himself and bumped shoulders with F2 as R2 was tagged. F2 was not injured, but he dropped the ball to the ground … and while reaching for it, R2 touched the plate.

A) 

B)

C)

D)

Edited by VolUmp
Further Clarification

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B & C are outs.  The rulebook in 'B" and the 2015 casebook in "C" both state that the penalty for malicious contact and jumping/hurdling/diving over a fielder supersede the penalty for obstruction.

In "D", I am assuming that there was no malicious contact and no deliberate/intentional act on the part of the runner to dislodge the ball from F2...so score the run.  (You don't even need to worry about the obstruction.)

As for "A"...the runner is required to run the bases "legally" after an obstruction.  He may be excused from touching a base if the obstruction causes him to miss the base, but that was not the case in this play as F2 did not commit obstruction according to the OP.  Furthermore, F2 has every right to make a play against R2 at this point because neither the offense nor the defense know as the play is continuing how far the umpire is going to protect R2's advance.  As a practical matter, in FED especially (where the ball remains "live" until the play is over), they won't know until the play has been completed.  So, R2 has a duty to legally advance around the bases.  That includes touching every base (unless obstructed from touching a base).  Hence, I am calling him "out" on this play.  

I also think this is a rule difference with OBR.  In OBR, this would be "obstruction without a play" (as J/R calls it).  In "obstruction without a play" the ball remains live.  However, if the defense makes a play on the obstructed runner and you (the umpire) are still protecting that runner, you would call "time" at that point that they attempt that play against the runner.  Since an "attempted tag" is defined as a "play", in scenario "A" in the OP, the umpire would call "time" when the defense attempted a play against R2 if he had decided to protect R2's advance to the plate.  Thus, when the PU called "time" he would award R2 home.  In such a scenario, the runner would almost surely deliberately and emphatically touch the plate.  Thus, I don't think scenario "A" would happen in an OBR game (if the umpire used protected mechanics), but because FED keeps the ball live to the end of playing action...no matter what...this could definitely happen in a FED game.

 

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32 minutes ago, lawump said:

So, R2 has a duty to legally advance around the bases. That includes touching every base (unless obstructed from touching a base). Hence, I am calling him "out" on this play.  

In 49 other states, would you only call him out on proper appeal by the defense? I seem to recall SC can still call runners out without an appeal for missed bases, leaving early, etc.

37 minutes ago, lawump said:

Thus, I don't think scenario "A" would happen in an OBR game (if the umpire used protected mechanics),

So on the Allen Craig game ending play, he never tried to touch the plate after being awarded home on OBS. Are you implying in OBR he would have been called out on proper appeal by the defense?

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52 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

In 49 other states, would you only call him out on proper appeal by the defense? I seem to recall SC can still call runners out without an appeal for missed bases, leaving early, etc.

So on the Allen Craig game ending play, he never tried to touch the plate after being awarded home on OBS. Are you implying in OBR he would have been called out on proper appeal by the defense?

Yes.

No.  I was implying (without having seen that play) that that would be rare.

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39 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I agree with lawump's answers -- and I think they are the same as Maven gave in the other thread (but I didn't go back to check)

Substantially the same. law drew a distinction between FED and OBR for play (a) that did not occur to me concerning when the ball would become dead and whether that would have an impact on R2's infraction near HP.

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No one is placing the BR.  I assume he goes to 2B on B & C and back to 1B on A & D.

See my new post below.

I had this exactly backwards because I forgot the sequence of my own OP (or is that PO???)

I think I have a good handle on all four now, and I could have come up with about 8 scenarios.

Thanks for all who contributed.

**Note: My intent in D was NO MC, but POSSIBLE INT call, which would change the outcome.

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30 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

No one is placing the BR.  I assume he goes to 2B on B & C and back to 1B on A & D.

On B and C, BR returns TOI.

On D, since there's no infraction, the ball remains live, so BR gets what he gets (even if he gets out)

On A, in OBR the ball becomes dead and BR is placed.  In FED, the ball remains live (see the answer for D)

  • Like 1

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23 hours ago, VolUmp said:

No one is placing the BR.  I assume he goes to 2B on B & C and back to 1B on A & D.

Well FUDGE.

I actually did this without looking at my own OP and I stated it precisely backwards.

B & C, R1 BR is placed at TOI.

A, D, R1 BR to 2B most likely.

Edited by VolUmp
Brain Cramp

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8 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Well FUDGE.

I actually did this without looking at my own OP and I stated it precisely backwards.

B & C, R1 is placed at TOI.

A, D, R1 to 2B most likely.

I don't think you need to worry about placing R1, unless you are playing in the backyard and using "ghost runners" there was not R1 at the start of the play.

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3 hours ago, noumpere said:

I don't think you need to worry about placing R1, unless you are playing in the backyard and using "ghost runners" there was not R1 at the start of the play.

BR.  Sorry again.  (Corrected above)

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