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bluejersey

Appeal of pulled foot

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Here's the situation:

R2 and R3, I'm in C, two outs. Ground ball to F6, throw to F3 requires a decent stretch, I call BR out.

Immediately, the batting team begins to argue that F3's foot came off of the bag and request that I get help. I go to my partner and ask if he held the bag. My partner then calls time and motions for me to come talk to him. He asks what I had in the play and I tell him I had an out, but was not in a good position to see a pulled foot. He responds that if I had an out we're sticking with out. I assumed he blanked and didn't watch for the pulled foot so he couldn't make a call.

However,  after the game he told me I shouldn't have made a call and should've come to him immediately since it was an obvious pulled foot. I responded that in my view it looked like he had the bag, but he had a better view which is why I went to him after the offense appealed. He then said that he couldn't change a call after I made it.

What is the proper mechanic?

 

BTW for context this was a men's baseball game using OBR.

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Make a call based on what you saw.  It is your call!  Call TIME, go to your P and ask if he had a pulled foot. He should give you his honest opinion and if a reversal is needed, you change it based on his info. 

I have learned on close calls like this I call the runner safe with the proper mechanic. This keeps the ball live. If it gets reversed nothing is hurt. 

 

 

 

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Your call.  The current policy "pendulum" is on the side of making a call first and then getting help, if needed.  

Your partner was correct in his assertion that he can't change YOUR call, but instead of asking what YOU had (you already announced what you had when you called the BR out), he should have informed you of what HE had.  Then you could have made the informed decision to change your own call if it was THAT obvious, or you could have stuck with YOUR call if you partner wasn't 100% sure you missed it.

       

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1 hour ago, Tborze said:

Make a call based on what you saw.  It is your call!  Call TIME, go to your P and ask if he had a pulled foot. He should give you his honest opinion and if a reversal is needed, you change it based on his info. 

I have learned on close calls like this I call the runner safe with the proper mechanic. This keeps the ball live. If it gets reversed nothing is hurt. 

 

 

 

I disagree with this approach.  You should only call, "Safe, off the bag" when you actually see the foot off the bag.  If you make that call without seeing it, and then go to your partner for information, you look foolish when you change it to an out because it looks like you're guessing.  Conversely, if you call the out and then go to your partner, it's more credible to tell the opposing coach that you were straightlined and that your partner had a better angle and was 100% sure he was off the bag.

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2 hours ago, bluejersey said:

Here's the situation:

R2 and R3, I'm in C, two outs. Ground ball to F6, throw to F3 requires a decent stretch, I call BR out.

Immediately, the batting team begins to argue that F3's foot came off of the bag and request that I get help. I go to my partner and ask if he held the bag. My partner then calls time and motions for me to come talk to him. He asks what I had in the play and I tell him I had an out, but was not in a good position to see a pulled foot. He responds that if I had an out we're sticking with out. I assumed he blanked and didn't watch for the pulled foot so he couldn't make a call.

However,  after the game he told me I shouldn't have made a call and should've come to him immediately since it was an obvious pulled foot. I responded that in my view it looked like he had the bag, but he had a better view which is why I went to him after the offense appealed. He then said that he couldn't change a call after I made it.

What is the proper mechanic?

 

BTW for context this was a men's baseball game using OBR.

It's not proper to "go to your partner" from across the field (except on check swings).  Call time and discuss the matter with him privately.  Doing it publicly puts him on the spot.  Perhaps he was watching R2's touch at third base (his responsibility) at the critical moment at first.

As Cav said, the current mechanic is to make your call and then, when requested by the coach (if you feel it's warranted), discuss the call privately with your partner to see if he has any information that you were missing when you made your call.  You can then decide whether you will stick with YOUR call, or change YOUR call.

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I agree with BU makes a call, then call time and discuss with PU if he  has info, or a coach requests you ask. If I have the plate and I have info my BU might be interested in, I'll have some type a signal to try to get him to come talk to me...(Taking off my hat, or not getting back behind the plate quickly....basically do something"different") Then he can use the info I give him any way he wants. Not a fan of BU going to PU without making a call, for the same reasons Greyhawk states above.

Always good to pregame this, especially in our area of NJ. We seem to have our fair share of guys who think going right to the PU without making a call is the proper thing to do, and won't change for nobody. I want this pregamed especially if I'm on the plate so I know and I'm ready for this guy to come to me for a call.

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18 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I agree with BU makes a call, then call time and discuss with PU if he  has info, or a coach requests you ask. If I have the plate and I have info my BU might be interested in, I'll have some type a signal to try to get him to come talk to me...(Taking off my hat, or not getting back behind the plate quickly....basically do something"different") Then he can use the info I give him any way he wants. Not a fan of BU going to PU without making a call, for the same reasons Greyhawk states above.

Always good to pregame this, especially in our area of NJ. We seem to have our fair share of guys who think going right to the PU without making a call is the proper thing to do, and won't change for nobody. I want this pregamed especially if I'm on the plate so I know and I'm ready for this guy to come to me for a call.

I always include "I'll come to you(or I'll be looking if I'm on the plate) for a pulled foot if necessary" in my pregame, but I guess I'll have to be more specific. I've had situations where a BU will come directly to me without making a call, but I've never had a PU refuse to give input if I've already made a call.

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3 hours ago, Tborze said:

Make a call based on what you saw.  It is your call!  Call TIME, go to your P and ask if he had a pulled foot. He should give you his honest opinion and if a reversal is needed, you change it based on his info. 

I have learned on close calls like this I call the runner safe with the proper mechanic. This keeps the ball live. If it gets reversed nothing is hurt. 

 

 

 

I've always thought that a "safe, off the bag call" could not be reversed since the BU is confirming he saw with certainty that the foot was off the bag. Similar to a "yes he did" call on a check swing.

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39 minutes ago, bluejersey said:

I always include "I'll come to you(or I'll be looking if I'm on the plate) for a pulled foot if necessary" in my pregame, but I guess I'll have to be more specific. I've had situations where a BU will come directly to me without making a call, but I've never had a PU refuse to give input if I've already made a call.

I've seen it..That's not the way to do things any more.  These days we need to  "get it right".  But there's a lot of "long time vets"  set in their ways.

:ranton:These are usually the same guys that don't want you turning their ball call to a swing on appeal....or in a FED game will refuse to come to you on the check swing.  It's the old guard and they're not going to change for anything.They're still of the "You made the call, live and die with it" mentality. They're also the guys still calling plays at the plate from 1B line extended. Question anything they do and you'll hear "I've been doing it this way for 25 years and I'm not changing for nobody." And as long as they keep getting games, their attitude isn't going to change :rantoff:

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7 hours ago, Richvee said:

I've seen it..That's not the way to do things any more.  These days we need to  "get it right".  But there's a lot of "long time vets"  set in their ways.

:ranton:These are usually the same guys that don't want you turning their ball call to a swing on appeal....or in a FED game will refuse to come to you on the check swing.  It's the old guard and they're not going to change for anything.They're still of the "You made the call, live and die with it" mentality. They're also the guys still calling plays at the plate from 1B line extended. Question anything they do and you'll hear "I've been doing it this way for 25 years and I'm not changing for nobody." And as long as they keep getting games, their attitude isn't going to change :rantoff:

Let's also mention that there are some older guard and newer gard who just seem to get straight-lined much to often and the only time they call a check swing a strike is when the bat practically wraps around the body, almost like a true non check swing, almost as if to take away the heat from them and put it on their partner.

From what I can see, both sitches above happen.

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13 hours ago, bluejersey said:

I've always thought that a "safe, off the bag call" could not be reversed since the BU is confirming he saw with certainty that the foot was off the bag. Similar to a "yes he did" call on a check swing.

Wouldn't an out call be the same?  Signaling an out means you saw with certainty that the foot was on the bag. 

In your sitch you called the BR out but your P said it was obvious he pulled his foot. How many times have you seen an off the bag safe call reversed because he did in fact hold the bag?

I am not saying, by any means, that I call him safe every time. Only one reversal for me in 2 seasons, and it was a pulled foot from B that F3 got his foot back in time. I went to my PU without being asked. I couldn't tell if he got it back on the bag. 

So yes, a safe call can be reversed. 

As others have mentioned, getting it right (or trying to) is the important thing.  By your P not offering his input didn't help do that. 

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18 minutes ago, Tborze said:

Wouldn't an out call be the same?  Signaling an out means you saw with certainty that the foot was on the bag. 

In your sitch you called the BR out but your P said it was obvious he pulled his foot. How many times have you seen an off the bag safe call reversed because he did in fact hold the bag?

I am not saying, by any means, that I call him safe every time. Only one reversal for me in 2 seasons, and it was a pulled foot from B that F3 got his foot back in time. I went to my PU without being asked. I couldn't tell if he got it back on the bag. 

So yes, a safe call can be reversed. 

As others have mentioned, getting it right (or trying to) is the important thing.  By your P not offering his input didn't help do that. 

Both calls can be reversed if the CALLING UMPIRE gets information from the partner(s).

Basically, call what you see. If you get discussion from the coaches, then you should call time - advise the coach to return to dugout/coaches box - get together a privately discuss the situation. Use the input received from the partner and make your decision. The coach cannot come out to argue if the call doesn't go his way (a rule in HS and NCAA, but works well for other levels too). By getting together in private with your partner, you don't throw anyone under the bus, if he was watching something else. He may just come up, when getting together, and say he has nothing to add - and that is OK too.

If I don't get questioned by the coach, then I don't go to my partner. It is my responsibility to make that call. If you go without being questioned, then coaches at higher levels will be after you to get help every time. This is a mess you don't want to get into.

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16 minutes ago, Tborze said:

Wouldn't an out call be the same?  Signaling an out means you saw with certainty that the foot was on the bag. 

In your sitch you called the BR out but your P said it was obvious he pulled his foot. How many times have you seen an off the bag safe call reversed because he did in fact hold the bag?

I am not saying, by any means, that I call him safe every time. Only one reversal for me in 2 seasons, and it was a pulled foot from B that F3 got his foot back in time. I went to my PU without being asked. I couldn't tell if he got it back on the bag. 

So yes, a safe call can be reversed. 

As others have mentioned, getting it right (or trying to) is the important thing.  By your P not offering his input didn't help do that. 

It's not the same.  If you are inside and get straightlined, then you are judging that the ball beat the runner, but you can't definitively see that the foot is off the bag, so you call the out.  The coach requests that you ask your partner, who had the better angle, if the foot was off the bag.  He tells you that he's 100% sure the foot was 6 inches off the bag.  You called what you saw and asked for information that led you to change your call.

Contrast that with the same situation (you are straightlined again), but you call "Safe, off the bag," without definitively seeing the foot off the bag.  The coach again requests that you ask your partner and he tells you that he's 100% sure the foot was on the bag.  This time, rather than calling what you saw, you made an assumption and guessed wrong.  Not a good look.

Does this mean a safe call can't be changed when better information is available?  Certainly not.  It just looks way worse for the BU because it's obvious to everyone that he guessed.

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I understand your points. 

I have always went by, call an out when you see an out. If I don't see him touch the bag, then I don't have an out. And if you don't have an out, he is what?  Safe.  Works for me.

@grayhawk am I understanding you are saying the opposite?

@maineumpYou know when a coach is gonna want to come out on you.  When it is obvious he is coming out to ask for help on a pulled foot, I call time before he can and go myself.  Saves time and don't want to give him the satisfaction of thinking he made me go get help.  I get your point though, but going for help shouldn't be that common place  

What is all this going for help stuff anyway?:cool:

 

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10 minutes ago, Tborze said:

I understand your points. 

I have always went by, call an out when you see an out. If I don't see him touch the bag, then I don't have an out. And if you don't have an out, he is what?  Safe.  Works for me.

@grayhawk am I understanding you are saying the opposite?

@maineumpYou know when a coach is gonna want to come out on you.  When it is obvious he is coming out to ask for help on a pulled foot, I call time before he can and go myself.  Saves time and don't want to give him the satisfaction of thinking he made me go get help.  I get your point though, but going for help shouldn't be that common place  

What is all this going for help stuff anyway?:cool:

 

If you see him off the bag, then definitely call, "Safe, off the bag."  If you're not sure, and the ball beat the runner, then call the out.  Don't assume he was off the bag because he stretched.  F3's hold the bag more often than not, so that should be the default in the absence of hard evidence.

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19 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

If you see him off the bag, then definitely call, "Safe, off the bag."  If you're not sure, and the ball beat the runner, then call the out.  Don't assume he was off the bag because he stretched.  F3's hold the bag more often than not, so that should be the default in the absence of hard evidence.

Right, and if you have hard evidence that his foot was off the bag, you wouldn't go to your partner for help.

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19 minutes ago, bluejersey said:

Right, and if you have hard evidence that his foot was off the bag, you wouldn't go to your partner for help.

Or, your partner provides the hard evidence that you lacked when making the call.

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5 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Or, your partner provides the hard evidence that you lacked when making the call.

Right, but if you're 100% sure, you're not going to change your call. And if you're not 100% sure his foot was off the bag, you're calling him out.

This is just how I've been taught...

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18 minutes ago, bluejersey said:

Right, but if you're 100% sure, you're not going to change your call. And if you're not 100% sure his foot was off the bag, you're calling him out.

This is just how I've been taught...

I'm going to chime in on the 100% sure mindset. I much prefer the "call what you see" attitude because oftentimes we aren't 100% sure when making a call, especially in two man. As BU, the play at first base is my responsibility. Sure, PU can keep an eye on it and gather information, but it's my job as BU to determine whether the batter runner is safe or out. Being inside the diamond, you often aren't going to see the actual space between F3's foot and the base. However, you can tell if he had to make a longer stretch than normal and whether or not his back foot got dragged off the base. I still need to be confident that F3 came off of first base to call "safe, off the bag", but I don't need to necessarily see the gap to know that he came off the bag. 

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On 9/25/2017 at 10:20 PM, bluejersey said:

... but I've never had a PU refuse to give input if I've already made a call.

 

On 9/25/2017 at 11:08 PM, Richvee said:

I've seen it..That's not the way to do things any more.  These days we need to  "get it right".  But there's a lot of "long time vets"  set in their ways.

I have had it also. You have to be very direct when the dinosaur is avoiding the question being asked. "Answer the FAQing question...Did you see a pulled foot?" 

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Actually had an umpire IN A PLAYOFF GAME tell me if he asks for help on a check swing, he wants me to agree. Asks another way... give what I got. And to never change his check swing call in the middle.

I had a 10 month old at the time. I couldn't remember what I had for breakfast that morning! 

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On 9/25/2017 at 5:53 PM, bluejersey said:

...I go to my partner and ask if he held the bag. My partner then calls time and motions for me to come talk to him. He asks what I had in the play and I tell him I had an out, but was not in a good position to see a pulled foot. He responds that if I had an out we're sticking with out.

You allowed your partner to control your request for additional information. You will have dinosaur partners like this that have a screwed-up notion of how a pulled foot appeal should be handled. You have to be very assertive with these guys. 
"Answer the question, did you see a pulled foot prior to the gloving of the throw?

Don't finish the conversation until you get the information that you were wanting.

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On 9/25/2017 at 7:38 PM, Tborze said:

Make a call based on what you saw.  It is your call!  Call TIME, go to your P and ask if he had a pulled foot. He should give you his honest opinion and if a reversal is needed, you change it based on his info. 

I have learned on close calls like this I call the runner safe with the proper mechanic. This keeps the ball live. If it gets reversed nothing is hurt. 

 

 

 

How are you calling safe if you cant see the pulled foot but the ball beat the runner? I would think that you would only be calling safe if you had him safe regardless of the foot or if you saw a pulled foot. no?

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On 9/26/2017 at 12:47 PM, grayhawk said:

It's not the same.  If you are inside and get straightlined, then you are judging that the ball beat the runner, but you can't definitively see that the foot is off the bag, so you call the out.  The coach requests that you ask your partner, who had the better angle, if the foot was off the bag.  He tells you that he's 100% sure the foot was 6 inches off the bag.  You called what you saw and asked for information that led you to change your call.

Contrast that with the same situation (you are straightlined again), but you call "Safe, off the bag," without definitively seeing the foot off the bag.  The coach again requests that you ask your partner and he tells you that he's 100% sure the foot was on the bag.  This time, rather than calling what you saw, you made an assumption and guessed wrong.  Not a good look.

Does this mean a safe call can't be changed when better information is available?  Certainly not.  It just looks way worse for the BU because it's obvious to everyone that he guessed.

It is for this reason that I will not call a runner safe unless I am definitively sure the fielder was off the bag. An effect of this is that I never will go for help on a safe call, because I know that I have all the input I need.

I also am firmly of the belief that if BU is doing his job, there is never a reason to get help on a pulled foot with no runners on. BU has one responsibility and one only.

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8 hours ago, Matt said:

I also am firmly of the belief that if BU is doing his job, there is never a reason to get help on a pulled foot with no runners on. BU has one responsibility and one only.

I'd use caution with this.  Things happen...even with no one aboard. If I feel in doubt, I will ask. And I've worked with many phenomenal umpires who are many hundreds of times better than me and they will come for help. The only times I will not ask is if I am absolutely confident in my call or to appease a coach. 

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