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timelydew

Does Joe West Just Make It Up As He Goes Along? (Illegal Pitch)

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Read the link here first:

https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/15034-joe-wests-illegal-pitch-call-cards-pirates-game.html


And fast forward to the present. Joe West, yet again being Joe West, called an illegal pitch on Marcus Stroman for his "delay" tactic from the wind-up. Same as happened in the link above. No one was on base, so he called the pitch a ball. As put forth in the rules, only two conditions give us an illegal pitch:  (1) a pitch delivered to the batter when the pitcher does not have his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate; (2) a quick return pitch.

Read through that link up there first (it's where I draw my opinion from, specifically the posts by Dave Hensely), and tell me if you agree or disagree with Joe's interpretation. I do not. The guy's been umpiring longer than I've been alive, but ol' Cowboy Joe does things his own way.

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Your link is 13 years old.  Much has changed in the rules since then, including some actions designed to "speed up the game."

 

And, while you are correct that it's not an Illegal Pitch as defined, it is a ball if the pitcher does not deliver the ball in some period of time.

 

I didn't see the play, so I won't comment on the call directly.

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41 minutes ago, timelydew said:

Read the link here first:

https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/15034-joe-wests-illegal-pitch-call-cards-pirates-game.html


And fast forward to the present. Joe West, yet again being Joe West, called an illegal pitch on Marcus Stroman for his "delay" tactic from the wind-up. Same as happened in the link above. No one was on base, so he called the pitch a ball. As put forth in the rules, only two conditions give us an illegal pitch:  (1) a pitch delivered to the batter when the pitcher does not have his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate; (2) a quick return pitch.

Read through that link up there first (it's where I draw my opinion from, specifically the posts by Dave Hensely), and tell me if you agree or disagree with Joe's interpretation. I do not. The guy's been umpiring longer than I've been alive, but ol' Cowboy Joe does things his own way.

I would have nothing or possibly "time" if the pause was too long. But another "do not do that", starting to come set and stopping, is balked by "common practice". Maybe Joe West has established his own "common practice."

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53 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Your link is 13 years old.  Much has changed in the rules since then, including some actions designed to "speed up the game."

 

And, while you are correct that it's not an Illegal Pitch as defined, it is a ball if the pitcher does not deliver the ball in some period of time.

 

I didn't see the play, so I won't comment on the call directly.

The time has gone from 20 seconds to 12. And Timelydew if you're that good why aren't we seeing you on television? When you get enough dirt on your shoes you might, and I said MIGHT, be able to talk crap about MLB umpires!

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Merriman walked with a 3-2 count on the board. Joe pointed at Stroman  on one of Stroman's more egregious stops and Stroman still delivered. Everyone thought it was a no pitch but I think I hear Joe say ball to Gibbons or someone. Stroman was irritating the batters and possibly Joe with his normal sideways windup with a free foot pause, his sideways windup with a free foot pause and a stride leg hang, his normal stretch borderline QP,  his stretch with a stride leg hang, and on the pitch in question he did a shimmy and started his sideways windup. Joe pointed at Stroman but did not call time. The pitch was delivered with Joe pointing and was either either a ball or no pitch. I think Joe just left it a ball because it was delivered. It had nothing to do with 12 seconds. Confusing.

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I recommend posing the question as, "Why is this an illegal pitch?" rather than the tendentious and presumptuous, "Is Joe West making it up?"

Why would you assume that you're right and West is wrong, instead of assuming that he knows what MLB wants called there and you don't?

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24 minutes ago, maven said:

I recommend posing the question as, "Why is this an illegal pitch?" rather than the tendentious and presumptuous, "Is Joe West making it up?"

Why would you assume that you're right and West is wrong, instead of assuming that he knows what MLB wants called there and you don't?

It wasn't an illegal pitch. It was a pitch called a ball.

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1 hour ago, maven said:

I recommend posing the question as, "Why is this an illegal pitch?" rather than the tendentious and presumptuous, "Is Joe West making it up?"

Why would you assume that you're right and West is wrong, instead of assuming that he knows what MLB wants called there and you don't?

Nobody knows what MLB wants called with Stroman or some other pitchers. So, Joe West could be making it up, or not. It's gone many wAys.

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14 hours ago, maven said:

I recommend posing the question as, "Why is this an illegal pitch?" rather than the tendentious and presumptuous, "Is Joe West making it up?"

Why would you assume that you're right and West is wrong, instead of assuming that he knows what MLB wants called there and you don't?

Because though Stroman has been called on a few quick pitches this season, he has not been called on that particular stop motion all season.  In fact, West let the same maneuver go the previous inning.  It's possible Joe West has been calling this when he sees it all season.  However, it was inconsistent with what Stroman has seen all season from other umpires

So, there are a few viable options, and assuming any of them may be reasonable.  West is making it up (probably because MLB is unclear or inconsistent on this particular scenario), West knows what MLB wants and no other umpire does (or they are ignoring it), or there was a POE conference call with all MLB umpires on Tuesday afternoon and West was first to put it into practice.

.

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12 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Because though Stroman has been called on a few quick pitches this season, he has not been called on that particular stop motion all season.  In fact, West let the same maneuver go the previous inning.

So, there are a few viable options, and assuming any of them may be reasonable.  West is making it up (probably because MLB is unclear or inconsistent on this particular scenario), West knows what MLB wants and no other umpire does (or they are ignoring it), or there was a POE conference call with all MLB umpires on Tuesday afternoon and West was first to put it into practice.

Unless you saw it earlier ( I did not) West did not let the same maneuver go the previous inning or during this at bat. This was a new move (shimmy?). It generated a gesture from Joe and some verbal but the pitch was delivered out of the zone and it was called a ball. 

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7 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Unless you saw it earlier ( I did not) West did not let the same maneuver go the previous inning or during this at bat. This was a new move (shimmy?). It generated a gesture from Joe and some verbal but the pitch was delivered out of the zone and it was called a ball. 

It was either the inning before, or two innings before (at this point I can't even remember what inning this incident occurred, and I'm too lazy to look it up).  My interpretation at the time was either there was a degree of difference - the second time was a little more blatant...or, perhaps West had just had enough (he may have even warned Martin/Stroman, we'll never know) - you see it more in football/hockey then you do in baseball, but sometimes an official will call something borderline he's already seen and let go a couple of times (holding, interference, roughing)...either because he's just had enough...or he realizes he's having his boundaries pushed by the players and he decides if he doesn't cut it now it's going to happen all game.

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4 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

It was either the inning before, or two innings before.  My interpretation at the time was either there was a degree of difference - the second time was a little more blatant...or, perhaps West had just had enough (he may have even warned Martin/Stroman, we'll never know) - you see it more in football/hockey then you do in baseball, but sometimes an official will call something he's already seen and let go a couple of times...either because he's just had enough...or he realizes he's having his boundaries pushed by the players and he decides if he doesn't cut it now it's going to happen all game.

So is that “shimmy” another part of Stroman’s repertoire that he’s been using all season? And ignored by most other umps?

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10 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

So is that “shimmy” another part of Stroman’s repertoire that he’s been using all season? And ignored by most other umps?

Is it like Cueto's?

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3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

So is that “shimmy” another part of Stroman’s repertoire that he’s been using all season? And ignored by most other umps?

I need to go back and see the video...I watched the replay a dozen times that night but can't find it anywhere now.  I don't specifically remember a shimmy on that play...I remember a stop (starting in "stretch", one step back.....pause...pause...pause...pitch)....he's been doing stops and Cueto-like shimmies (and quick pitches) all year.   As far as I can remember until Tuesday he'd only been called for quick pitches.

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23 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I need to go back and see the video...I watched the replay a dozen times that night but can't find it anywhere now.  I don't specifically remember a shimmy on that play...I remember a stop (starting in "stretch", one step back.....pause...pause...pause...pitch)....he's been doing stops and Cueto-like shimmies (and quick pitches) all year.   As far as I can remember until Tuesday he'd only been called for quick pitches.

Couldn't get my iphone video to my PC except by this primitive method. Joe was not happy with the hip turn. Maybe he thought Stroman used the hip twist to deke that he was gonna deliver right away from the "stretch" and then still did the free foot back:

 

 

WIN_20170922_15_49_08_ProTrim.mp4

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8 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Couldn't get my iphone video to my PC except by this primitive method. Joe was not happy with the hip turn. Maybe he thought Stroman used the hip twist to deke that he was gonna deliver right away from the "stretch" and then still did the free foot back:

 

 

Better video direct from phone:

89F73C35-9025-45AE-9A44-4CA446CB4112.MOV

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6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Couldn't get my iphone video to my PC except by this primitive method. Joe was not happy with the hip turn. Maybe he thought Stroman used the hip twist to deke that he was gonna deliver right away from the "stretch" and then still did the free foot back:

 

WIN_20170922_15_49_08_ProTrim.mp4

Very possible...the timing of West pointing comes after Stroman has stepped back and paused, so my assumption is/was that West was objecting to the stop in motion, which is what Stroman has done from time to time all year (including earlier that game).  You're right...that little twist before he steps back is different.

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3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Very possible...the timing of West pointing comes after Stroman has stepped back and paused, so my assumption is/was that West was objecting to the stop in motion, which is what Stroman has done from time to time all year (including earlier that game).  You're right...that little twist before he steps back is different.

Joe West may be making stuff up that we should all adhere to. In this and the original OF thread the pitch was delivered. In the OF thread the delivered pitch was penalized as ball 4 or may have actually been ball 4. Why would you give a pitcher who violated a rule a freebie? There is no guidance on when to call time when a do not do that happens. In the current OP Joe pointed, the pitch was a ball, and Joe told Stroman not to do that again. If the batter had taken Stroman yard on that pitch the point keeps Joe out of trouble. Any kind of time or no pitch call would be a mess although I might have heard a low "no pitch" from Joe, or some utterance.

BTW, I like what Stroman does within the rules to keep batters timing off. 

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On 9/21/2017 at 4:06 PM, UMP45 said:

The time has gone from 20 seconds to 12. And Timelydew if you're that good why aren't we seeing you on television? When you get enough dirt on your shoes you might, and I said MIGHT, be able to talk crap about MLB umpires!

Little and Nauert already beat Joe to the punch earlier in the year with the call on this as you are well aware, but of course Joe gets mentioned as the big bad Wolf.

 

and, from the neck of the woods in this country that you are in, i thought you were going to make some reference about wiping the dew off the lilypad.

 

and I am still look'in for that guy who licked the red off my sucker, but I will find him. probably hiding in the hen house with the fox.

 

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1 hour ago, dumbdumb said:

Little and Nauert already beat Joe to the punch earlier in the year with the call on this as you are well aware, but of course Joe gets mentioned as the big bad Wolf.

 

and, from the neck of the woods in this country that you are in, i thought you were going to make some reference about wiping the dew off the lilypad.

 

and I am still look'in for that guy who licked the red off my sucker, but I will find him. probably hiding in the hen house with the fox.

 

Those were QPs. The OP is not. 

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All I can say is that I was trying to be slightly inflammatory when I made the thread. Don't take it so seriously.

So, it seems as though nobody knows exactly whether this is a ball or not - I think the safest call for a major league ump is "no pitch" and "don't do that again", with further transgressions punishable by ejection. In truth, I don't know what the MLB's view on this is, but going by the rules as they are set out, if Joe called it a ball because of the "shimmy", he is incorrect, at least to me. Maybe I'm wrong, and the league has issued a secret memo to its umpires, but until that time, I believe Joe just took the call into his own hands. And yeah, this had nothing to do with delivering the pitch within 12 seconds, or whatever. I realize that rules are ever-changing, but I doubt rules pertaining to this peculiar delivery have.

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2 hours ago, timelydew said:

All I can say is that I was trying to be slightly inflammatory when I made the thread. Don't take it so seriously.

So, it seems as though nobody knows exactly whether this is a ball or not - I think the safest call for a major league ump is "no pitch" and "don't do that again", with further transgressions punishable by ejection. In truth, I don't know what the MLB's view on this is, but going by the rules as they are set out, if Joe called it a ball because of the "shimmy", he is incorrect, at least to me. Maybe I'm wrong, and the league has issued a secret memo to its umpires, but until that time, I believe Joe just took the call into his own hands. And yeah, this had nothing to do with delivering the pitch within 12 seconds, or whatever. I realize that rules are ever-changing, but I doubt rules pertaining to this peculiar delivery have.

Joe called it a ball because it was a ball. If it had not been delivered or was delivered as a strike and Joe called it a ball it would be a problem. 

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