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Guest Belanthier

Does the run count

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Guest Belanthier   
Guest Belanthier

Runners at first and third.. one out. Batter pops out to centre field. Runner at third tags and goes home.. runner at first does not tag and goes to second. The play at first then becomes a force because the runner did not tag up. Toss the ball back to first for the third out. The question is: Does the run count?

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CJK    80

The play at first is not a force.  A force can only be created by the batter becoming a batter-runner.  Once a trailing runner has been retired (in this case, the batter-runner, who was retired on the catch), there can be no force play.

The play at first is a live-ball appeal, and is therefore a time play (meaning that runs count if they score before the actual appeal is made on the runner for not re-touching).

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maven    3,889
3 minutes ago, CJK said:

The play at first is a live-ball appeal, and is therefore a time play (meaning that runs count if they score before the actual appeal is made on the runner for not re-touching).

Both parts of your statement are true: it is a live ball appeal, and it is a time play.

But the "therefore" connecting them is incorrect: a live ball appeal can be a force out, as it often is for a missed base appeal. So the fact that this is a live ball appeal does not entail that it will be a time play.

The fact that it is a retouch appeal DOES entail that it is a time play.

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beerguy55    180
2 hours ago, Guest Belanthier said:

Runners at first and third.. one out. Batter pops out to centre field. Runner at third tags and goes home.. runner at first does not tag and goes to second. The play at first then becomes a force because the runner did not tag up. Toss the ball back to first for the third out. The question is: Does the run count?

The misconception is that because the defender simply has to touch the base, instead of the runner, that it becomes a "force".   Touching the base is not what defines a force.   And it's a widely held misconception (like hands are part of the bat) - I have had umpires tell me this is a force play.

As stated above, a force occurs when the batter becomes a runner, forcing the runner on first (R1) to go to second, and if applicable R2 to third, R3 to home.  Even if you tag the runner on his way to second base, instead of touching the base, the runner has still been forced out.

An appeal on a fly ball tag up is a time play.  An appeal on a missed base might be a force, or might be a time play, depending on whether or not the runner was forced to the base they ended up missing.  In all cases, touching the bag in time gets you the out. 

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Jimurray    544
43 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

The misconception is that because the defender simply has to touch the base, instead of the runner, that it becomes a "force".   Touching the base is not what defines a force.   And it's a widely held misconception (like hands are part of the bat) - I have had umpires tell me this is a force play.

As stated above, a force occurs when the batter becomes a runner, forcing the runner on first (R1) to go to second, and if applicable R2 to third, R3 to home.  Even if you tag the runner on his way to second base, instead of touching the base, the runner has still been forced out.

An appeal on a fly ball tag up is a time play.  An appeal on a missed base might be a force, or might be a time play, depending on whether or not the runner was forced to the base they ended up missing.  In all cases, touching the bag in time gets you the out. 

And what "time" the bag is touched has some semantic issues in all the codes. 

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Richvee    1,724

I'm pretty amazed this play happens as much as it's asked on this site. In 8 years and probably 1,000+ games, I haven't sen this more than once or twice...Yet it's asked here virtually every week.

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stkjock    272

considering how many games are played across the nation on a weekly basis, who knows how many, 10,000 a week, more? 

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beerguy55    180
39 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I'm pretty amazed this play happens as much as it's asked on this site. In 8 years and probably 1,000+ games, I haven't sen this more than once or twice...Yet it's asked here virtually every week.

I think I've seen it three times in 35 years of playing and coaching...2000+ games.  Only one of those times, that I can remember, did the umpire (and one of the coaches) think it was a "force" play and not count the run.

 

The interesting one for me happened two summers ago with me coaching third.  Bases loaded one out.  Fly ball to warning track, R2/R3 tag, R1 goes halfway.

Ball is caught, R2/R3 go, R1 has a brain cramp and advances to second.  Throw comes in, misses cutoff, and is offline...I wave R2 home.  Throw goes between 1st and home, catcher gets ball and throws to F3 to get R1 who is still running back to first.

I ask PU if both runs count and he immediately says yes.  And the other coach knew it was a time play as well - he kept his argument/appeal to whether that second runner crossed in time....PU discusses with BU and call stands.

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MadMax    1,217

I dealt with this exact Situation, compete with the coach & player misconception:

 

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