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timelydew

Fielder Dropping Ball While Out of Play

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timelydew    0

"If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and drops the ball while he is out of play, or if the fielder drops such a ball and it then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was dropped"

I guess my question is, has anyone ever seen this? I suppose the odds of this happening in a MLB park are next to none, especially regarding the first part (what with walls and all), but yeah. It's hard to find reference to this anywhere on the internet so I guess I'm asking if anyone has ever seen this at the pro level, or anywhere else. I'm picturing an outfielder, having made a legal catch or gathering the ball in near the wall after a hit, doing this. I found this on a site called baseball rules academy, and it appears to be from the MLB Umpires Manual, so perhaps it has happened. I have never seen nor read the manual, so I'm not sure.

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noumpere    2,413
8 minutes ago, timelydew said:

I didn't realize I'd opened up such a can of worms. To me, the rule implies that if, for example, you have a runner on second, and the batter hits a ball into foul territory near the seats (picture a MLB park), that a fielder leaping over the wall who gains possession of the ball, and drops it once they hit the ground not only doesn't record an out (per the rules for making a catch), but would also score the runner who was on second. That... is weird and doesn't seem right. Imagine that play ending a game. What an uproar you'd have. I'm just going off @Rich Ives answer....

I almost wish I'd never asked. I'm not disagreeing with Rich's interpretation. The way it's written, his answer seems plausible. Oddly enough, this is under the "deflected balls out of play" category. 

It's not right.  The play would be a foul ball, no runners advance.

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noumpere    2,413
6 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Noted.  I was replying from my own personal experience.  I had included myself in the "anyone" spectrum of the question.

You are not "no one."  ;)

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beerguy55    180
1 hour ago, timelydew said:

If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and drops the ball while he is out of play

Maybe I'm confused on the rules - why would it matter if he drops the ball or not....if he's out of play with the ball doesn't everything end right there?   And isn't it just one base?   The second half about dropping the ball and it going out of play makes sense...the first part does not.

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timelydew    0
2 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Maybe I'm confused on the rules - why would it matter if he drops the ball or not....if he's out of play with the ball doesn't everything end right there?   And isn't it just one base?   The second half about dropping the ball and it going out of play makes sense...the first part does not.

Yeah, the first part gets me too. I honestly don't know. Pretty befuddled by that.

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noumpere    2,413
17 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Maybe I'm confused on the rules - why would it matter if he drops the ball or not....if he's out of play with the ball doesn't everything end right there?   And isn't it just one base?   The second half about dropping the ball and it going out of play makes sense...the first part does not.

It's leftover from when the rule allowed a ball to be carried into some dead ball areas and still be live as long as the fielder didn't fall or drop the ball.  (The specifics varied by code)

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Rich Ives    956
1 hour ago, timelydew said:

"If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and drops the ball while he is out of play, or if the fielder drops such a ball and it then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was dropped"

I guess my question is, has anyone ever seen this? I suppose the odds of this happening in a MLB park are next to none, especially regarding the first part (what with walls and all), but yeah. It's hard to find reference to this anywhere on the internet so I guess I'm asking if anyone has ever seen this at the pro level, or anywhere else. I'm picturing an outfielder, having made a legal catch or gathering the ball in near the wall after a hit, doing this. I found this on a site called baseball rules academy, and it appears to be from the MLB Umpires Manual, so perhaps it has happened. I have never seen nor read the manual, so I'm not sure.

Secure possession while leaping over the fence. Drop it when hitting the ground outside the playing field.  

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timelydew    0
31 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Secure possession while leaping over the fence. Drop it when hitting the ground outside the playing field.  

Isn't it considered a dropped ball and not an out if you hit the ground and the ball pops out?
"A catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball."

So if a fielder leaped over a wall in foul territory, secured possession of a ball going over the wall, and subsequently dropped it after falling into out of play territory, would the runners advance (if any) and the out not be recorded? That hardly seems fair. I gotta say I'm confused a little.

 

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timelydew    0
15 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

..........was much easier

I didn't realize I'd opened up such a can of worms. To me, the rule implies that if, for example, you have a runner on second, and the batter hits a ball into foul territory near the seats (picture a MLB park), that a fielder leaping over the wall who gains possession of the ball, and drops it once they hit the ground not only doesn't record an out (per the rules for making a catch), but would also score the runner who was on second. That... is weird and doesn't seem right. Imagine that play ending a game. What an uproar you'd have. I'm just going off @Rich Ives answer....

I almost wish I'd never asked. I'm not disagreeing with Rich's interpretation. The way it's written, his answer seems plausible. Oddly enough, this is under the "deflected balls out of play" category. 

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timelydew    0
10 minutes ago, noumpere said:

It's not right.  The play would be a foul ball, no runners advance.

Right, yeah. His answer confused me. So then, is he wrong altogether? For example, if you take the same scenario, and apply it to a ball hit over the outfield fence in fair territory (OF gains possession, appearing to make miraculous catch, but drops it once they hit the ground on the other side), then it's just a home run. I remember Mookie Betts catching a Jose Abreu fly ball, flipping over the short wall in right center at Fenway, and dropping it after hitting the deck on the other side of the wall. It was ruled a HR. (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mookie-betts-robs-jose-abreu-flips-wall-ruled-hr-article-1.2307396

So, as you said earlier, is that first part of the rule just a leftover relic? The rule/interpretation in general makes sense, notwithstanding the first part. I get the second part and it's still pertinent. The only permutation of the first part I can even think would apply would be if the catch was made and the dude just drops the ball inadvertently after it's ruled a catch and an out. But that doesn't seem right either, since this also applies to thrown balls. Curse the man who has kept this around.

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beerguy55    180
2 hours ago, timelydew said:

Right, yeah. His answer confused me. So then, is he wrong altogether? For example, if you take the same scenario, and apply it to a ball hit over the outfield fence in fair territory (OF gains possession, appearing to make miraculous catch, but drops it once they hit the ground on the other side), then it's just a home run. I remember Mookie Betts catching a Jose Abreu fly ball, flipping over the short wall in right center at Fenway, and dropping it after hitting the deck on the other side of the wall. It was ruled a HR. (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mookie-betts-robs-jose-abreu-flips-wall-ruled-hr-article-1.2307396

So, as you said earlier, is that first part of the rule just a leftover relic? The rule/interpretation in general makes sense, notwithstanding the first part. I get the second part and it's still pertinent. The only permutation of the first part I can even think would apply would be if the catch was made and the dude just drops the ball inadvertently after it's ruled a catch and an out. But that doesn't seem right either, since this also applies to thrown balls. Curse the man who has kept this around.

If you get possession of the ball, and then bring the ball into DBT, then the play is over as soon as you enter DBT...you can drop the ball, throw the ball, eat the ball, it doesn't matter.  Once you enter DBT the play is over and all runners get one base from their current location.

The only possible exception that would meet your posted rule's conditions would be if you were Superman, and you could fly up, catch the ball, and then, as you are flying around and change direction, you establish control of the ball (nothing in MLB rules requires you to be touching the ground to complete a catch), and then drop the ball over DBT.

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Jimurray    542
5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If you get possession of the ball, and then bring the ball into DBT, then the play is over as soon as you enter DBT...you can drop the ball, throw the ball, eat the ball, it doesn't matter.  Once you enter DBT the play is over and all runners get one base from their current location.

The only possible exception that would meet your posted rule's conditions would be if you were Superman, and you could fly up, catch the ball, and then, as you are flying around and change direction, you establish control of the ball (nothing in MLB rules requires you to be touching the ground to complete a catch), and then drop the ball over DBT.

I think one base only applies in a "catch" and carry. Carrying a live, non fly,  batted ball or throw into dead ball territory would be two bases TOP or TOT. 

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