Jump to content

Register or Sign In to remove these ads
  • 0
Sign in to follow this  
beerguy55

Batted ball?

Question

beerguy55    180

Count is 3-1.  Ball slips out of hand as pitcher delivers pitch, goes almost sideways.

Batter tosses bat towards dugout and starts strolling to first base for walk.

The wild pitch, which is still moving, hits the bat.  

Is this a batted ball and foul/fair depending on where ball ends up?

Would it matter if the ball hadn't crossed the foul line yet?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0
Rich Ives    956
38 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Count is 3-1.  Ball slips out of hand as pitcher delivers pitch, goes almost sideways.

Batter tosses bat towards dugout and starts strolling to first base for walk.

The wild pitch, which is still moving, hits the bat.  

Is this a batted ball and foul/fair depending on where ball ends up?

Would it matter if the ball hadn't crossed the foul line yet?  

Was it a pitch? If so it's a batted ball in my book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Register or Sign In to remove these ads
  • 0
Senor Azul    156

From the Jaksa/Roder manual (2010 edition, pp. 139-140):

A slip (as opposed to a pitch or throw) is a released baseball, intended to be a pitch or throw, but that lacks both aim and momentum. Any intended pitch that slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses (or, if it is touched, would have crossed) a foul line is a ball. An intended pitch that slips and does not cross a foul line is a balk if there is a runner and no pitch if there is not a runner. [rule 6.02(b) CMT, 8.01(d) CMT]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
noumpere    2,413
11 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From the Jaksa/Roder manual (2010 edition, pp. 139-140):

A slip (as opposed to a pitch or throw) is a released baseball, intended to be a pitch or throw, but that lacks both aim and momentum. Any intended pitch that slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses (or, if it is touched, would have crossed) a foul line is a ball. An intended pitch that slips and does not cross a foul line is a balk if there is a runner and no pitch if there is not a runner. [rule 6.02(b) CMT, 8.01(d) CMT]

I don't think that really answers the question -- I am assuming that J/R means "touched by a defensive player."

If the ball was only so wild that it rolled, say, through the opposite batter's box -- we'd let BR take a swing at it if he wanted to.  And, we know the batter can throw the bat at the ball on, say, a pitch out and if he hits the ball it's a batted ball.  And, we know that intent to hit the ball doesn't matter when the bat hits the ball.

 

Adding all those up seems to make this a batted ball.

But, it's 8.01(c)-ish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
BretMan    89

If it's a batted ball, then you have an out. Batter's feet were out of the box when contact was made!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
beerguy55    180
58 minutes ago, BretMan said:

If it's a batted ball, then you have an out. Batter's feet were out of the box when contact was made!

Never even considered that element - I would agree with that.

 

13 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Any intended pitch that slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses (or, if it is touched, would have crossed) a foul line is a ball

 Unless the batter swings at it.

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

I am assuming that J/R means "touched by a defensive player

I would suspect a runner too, perhaps?

My line of thinking was pretty much along yours.  A batter can swing at virtually any pitch.  A batter can throw his bat at a pitch.  A bat is not required to be in the batter's hands to have a batted ball.  And intent is not required for a batted ball, foul or fair.  I'm suspecting that ANY "intended" pitch, slipped or not, that hits the bat becomes a pitch and ergo a batted ball.  That is, I'm guessing that even though a slipped/intended pitch has to cross a foul line to lose its "no pitch" status, if it hit a bat dropped in fair territory it would become a batted ball (and, by default, a pitch).  Considering that 99% of all batted balls are struck before the ball crosses the plate/foul line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
noumpere    2,413
3 hours ago, BretMan said:

If it's a batted ball, then you have an out. Batter's feet were out of the box when contact was made!

I would treat this the same as a batter trying to get out of the way of a pitch, steps out of the box  and then the pitch hits the bat -- no penalty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I believe that once it leaves the batter's hands and is no longer under his control, the bat is just part of the field.

The OP does not say if there are runner(s) on base.  If we have runner(s) the ball in LIVE until touched by the defense (BALK) or crosses base line (BALL)...regardless of when/where it touched the discarded bat.

If no runner(s); I've got ball four AND a LIVE ball regardless of contact with discarded bat.

Of course, this would all change if I believed the batter tossed the bat where he did with intent to interfere with the ball...highly doubtful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Rich Ives    956
1 minute ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

I believe that once it leaves the batter's hands and is no longer under his control, the bat is just part of the field.

 

You can throw the bat at a pitch and if they touch it's a batted ball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
6 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

You can throw the bat at a pitch and if they touch it's a batted ball.

Certainly correct...but I believe I covered that in the final line of my post.  If I judged INTENT, either to interfere OR to offer at the pitch, I'd rule differently.  By my reading of the OP, there was no mention of intent.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
beerguy55    180
12 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

I believe that once it leaves the batter's hands and is no longer under his control, the bat is just part of the field.

 

There is no requirement for a bat to be in a batter's hands to have a batted ball.  Whether it slips out of his hands or he throws the bat (eg. on a hit and run and they throw a pitchout), he can get a foul ball, a ground ball out, a hit, even an over the fence home run.

I guess the question is whether or not there is a point where the bat is considered to be discarded, and no longer an instrument attempting to hit a pitch - and I'm thinking this is only true after there's no pitch to hit.

14 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Of course, this would all change if I believed the batter tossed the bat where he did with intent to interfere with the ball...highly doubtful.

This would, in fact, then be an attempt to hit a pitch - it wouldn't be an attempt to interfere with the ball any more than throwing your bat at an outside pitch on hit and run/squeeze play to protect your runner is interfering with the ball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
  • Yes, beerbuy55 and Rich Ives...I should have been more careful in my wording.  Whether an attempt to put ball in play, OR attempt to interfere with a ball in play, EITHER would certainly require intent.  From my reading of the OP, I didn't see anything that led me to believe that there was any intent.  The OP says "batter tosses bat toward dugout and starts strolling toward first" 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Rich Ives    956
58 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Certainly correct...but I believe I covered that in the final line of my post.  If I judged INTENT, either to interfere OR to offer at the pitch, I'd rule differently.  By my reading of the OP, there was no mention of intent.

 

You can't interfere with a pitch. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
beerguy55    180
2 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:
  • Yes, beerbuy55 and Rich Ives...I should have been more careful in my wording.  Whether an attempt to put ball in play, OR attempt to interfere with a ball in play, EITHER would certainly require intent.  From my reading of the OP, I didn't see anything that led me to believe that there was any intent.  The OP says "batter tosses bat toward dugout and starts strolling toward first" 

And if a batter accidentally drops the bat at the plate and it hits the ball?  Or if while diving out of the way of a head-high fast ball the bat flies out of his hands and hits the ball?

Or are you suggesting there is a provision for a batter to intentionally discard his bat, at which point it's no longer a tool of the batter, but just a piece of equipment?  I believe that can only happen after a pitch has been completed (once it passes the batter/catcher, or is hit?), not during a pitch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I keep going back to the OP.  "Batter tosses his bat toward dugout..."  Hard for me to imagine how a bat tossed from home plate toward the dugout could be anywhere BUT outside the foul line.  Even harder to imagine how that bat could be considered anything OTHER than part of the field....as described in OP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
maven    3,887
1 minute ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Hard for me to imagine how a bat tossed from home plate toward the dugout could be anywhere BUT outside the foul line.

The location of the bat is immaterial.

1 minute ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Even harder to imagine how that bat could be considered anything OTHER than part of the field

Imagine harder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
beerguy55    180
25 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

I keep going back to the OP.  "Batter tosses his bat toward dugout..."  Hard for me to imagine how a bat tossed from home plate toward the dugout could be anywhere BUT outside the foul line.  Even harder to imagine how that bat could be considered anything OTHER than part of the field....as described in OP.

I don't think it matters if the bat is foul or fair.  By rule a slipped pitch is a "no pitch" until it crosses the foul line, at which point it becomes a legal pitch...but I suspect if the bat was in fair territory it would still be a batted ball (because virtually all batted balls are struck in fair territory)...so, change the OP to the batter drops the bat in front of the plate and strolls to first base, and the slipped pitch (not necessarily sideways), bounced and rolled until it eventually nestles up to the bat.  Does your position change?

The issue isn't whether the bat was fair or foul - it's on the ground and the pitch hit it. The issue is whether or not your assertion is correct - that the act of intentionally discarding the bat negates any subsequent contact between pitch and bat.  I don't fundamentally have a problem with your position - I don't agree with it, but I have no problem with your logic and how you arrive at it...it's a matter of whether or not rule, ruling, case play, or precedent support it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
18 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I don't think it matters if the bat is foul or fair.  By rule a slipped pitch is a "no pitch" until it crosses the foul line, at which point it becomes a legal pitch...but I suspect if the bat was in fair territory it would still be a batted ball (because virtually all batted balls are struck in fair territory)...so, change the OP to the batter drops the bat in front of the plate and strolls to first base, and the slipped pitch (not necessarily sideways), bounced and rolled until it eventually nestles up to the bat.  Does your position change?

The issue isn't whether the bat was fair or foul - it's on the ground and the pitch hit it. The issue is whether or not your assertion is correct - that the act of intentionally discarding the bat negates any subsequent contact between pitch and bat.  I don't fundamentally have a problem with your position - I don't agree with it, but I have no problem with your logic and how you arrive at it...it's a matter of whether or not rule, ruling, case play, or precedent support it.

I don't think we REALLY disagree here at all.  Perhaps I just wasn't thinking 'outside the box' enough to consider all the possible scenarios.  From the very beginning, I could only imagine the bat being in foul ground...heck, where else could a bat be when tossed from home plate toward the dugout?  And, yes, I suppose that the fair/foul position of the bat (in and of itself) doesn't really matter, EXCEPT, that if the ball hit the bat in foul ground the ball obviously crossed the foul line..in which case; with runners on base it's a balk, with no runners its a ball (ball four according to OP). 

I never considered the other scenarios you, correctly pointed out;  the bat being dropped in front of home, etc.  So, yes, my position would change in that case...but that's not the way I read the OP.  Sure, batter drops bat in front of home plate where it is hit by errant pitch bouncing or rolling toward plate...that ball would be in play, and judged fair or foul just the same as it the bat had still been in batter's hands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
noumpere    2,413
21 minutes ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

EXCEPT, that if the ball hit the bat in foul ground the ball obviously crossed the foul line..in which case; with runners on base it's a balk, with no runners its a ball (ball four according to OP). 

 

I think you have that mostly sdrawkcab. 

IF the ball crosses the foul line, it's a ball.  If it doesn't cross the foul line the (a) with runners it's a balk; (b) with no runners it's nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 11:16 AM, noumpere said:

I think you have that mostly sdrawkcab. 

IF the ball crosses the foul line, it's a ball.  If it doesn't cross the foul line the (a) with runners it's a balk; (b) with no runners it's nothing.

Yup, definitely sdrawkcab. 

Note to self; don't mix vodka with pain meds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×