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Guest El Cassie

Why wasn't an out

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Guest El Cassie   
Guest El Cassie

At a Triple A game, a batter hit the ball straight to the 3rd baseman, it was chest high, never touching the ground and the basemen was in fair territory when he caught the ball.  The 3rd baseman caught the through the ball to the 1st baseman, but it was wide and the 1st baseman missed the ball.  The batter was declared safe at 1st.  Why wasn't he declared out when the 3rd baseman caught the ball?

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ElkOil    696
1 hour ago, Guest El Cassie said:

At a Triple A game, a batter hit the ball straight to the 3rd baseman, it was chest high, never touching the ground and the basemen was in fair territory when he caught the ball.  The 3rd baseman caught the through the ball to the 1st baseman, but it was wide and the 1st baseman missed the ball.  The batter was declared safe at 1st.  Why wasn't he declared out when the 3rd baseman caught the ball?

Is it possible you missed something, like the ball bouncing before the fielder caught it? Did you see an umpire make a call like a safe signal when the ball was caught by the third baseman?

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ALStripes17    556
Bigger clue - F5 would not have thrown the ball to 1B if he knew he caught it for an out.
I honestly hate that line of thinking for a player or umpire.

On close plays, it's a safe bet for a player to throw it to 1B and not leave a close play in the umpires judgment, which could be wrong. I've seen too many players stop playing on a ball they thought they caught but umpire thought otherwise.

As an umpire, our job is to judge what we see on the play, not player reactions. He either caught it or he didn't. What he does after that, doesn't have a bearing on that

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Mussgrass    20
49 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

I honestly hate that line of thinking for a player or umpire.

On close plays, it's a safe bet for a player to throw it to 1B and not leave a close play in the umpires judgment, which could be wrong. I've seen too many players stop playing on a ball they thought they caught but umpire thought otherwise.

As an umpire, our job is to judge what we see on the play, not player reactions. He either caught it or he didn't. What he does after that, doesn't have a bearing on that

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This is true, BUT player reactions can help us make our decision as to what actually happened. Proper timing would take all information into account.

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ALStripes17    556
This is true, BUT player reactions can help us make our decision as to what actually happened. Proper timing would take all information into account.
This should not be a default way of thinking. We need to get in position and do our jobs, not let the player response dictate it.

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stkjock    273
1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

I honestly hate that line of thinking for a player or umpire.

On close plays, it's a safe bet for a player to throw it to 1B and not leave a close play in the umpires judgment, which could be wrong. I've seen too many players stop playing on a ball they thought they caught but umpire thought otherwise.

As an umpire, our job is to judge what we see on the play, not player reactions. He either caught it or he didn't. What he does after that, doesn't have a bearing on that

 

I agree with your sentiment, however, the OP said the ball was caught "chest high" so how could that be as close?

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noumpere    2,415
6 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Read the OP. F5 "caught" it chest high. 

 

6 minutes ago, stkjock said:

I agree with your sentiment, however, the OP said the ball was caught "chest high" so how could that be as close?

Maybe F5 dove for the ball and caught it (or not) just before the ball and his chest hit the ground?  ;)

I agree the OP didn't see what he thought he saw.  And, I don't see anyone in this thread suggesting that the umpire used the player's actions to decide -- it's only a clue to those of us who didn't see it (and, thus, have only the OP and the actions on which to base our conclusions.)

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Stk004    599
1 hour ago, noumpere said:

 

Maybe F5 dove for the ball and caught it (or not) just before the ball and his chest hit the ground?  ;)

I agree the OP didn't see what he thought he saw.  And, I don't see anyone in this thread suggesting that the umpire used the player's actions to decide -- it's only a clue to those of us who didn't see it (and, thus, have only the OP and the actions on which to base our conclusions.)

I'd put my money on a chopper off of home plate that looked like a fly ball. The OP said this was a AAA game, so there's no way something painfully obvious was missed. 

3 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

On close plays, it's a safe bet for a player to throw it to 1B and not leave a close play in the umpires judgment, which could be wrong. I've seen too many players stop playing on a ball they thought they caught but umpire thought otherwise.
 

I had this exact play happen yesterday. Sinking line drive to F4 that he caught cleanly with his glove on the ground. He threw to first base anyway, but it was pretty clear to my partner and I that he caught it. :shrug:

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stkjock    273
2 hours ago, noumpere said:

Maybe F5 dove for the ball and caught it (or not) just before the ball and his chest hit the ground?  ;)

touche! 

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Rich Ives    956
3 hours ago, Stk004 said:

 

I had this exact play happen yesterday. Sinking line drive to F4 that he caught cleanly with his glove on the ground. He threw to first base anyway, but it was pretty clear to my partner and I that he caught it. :shrug:

That's different. This play was about securing the ball chest high.

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Stk004    599

@Rich Ives really? 

10 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

On close plays, it's a safe bet for a player to throw it to 1B and not leave a close play in the umpires judgment, which could be wrong. I've seen too many players stop playing on a ball they thought they caught but umpire thought otherwise.

 

6 hours ago, Stk004 said:

I had this exact play happen yesterday. Sinking line drive to F4 that he caught cleanly with his glove on the ground. He threw to first base anyway, but it was pretty clear to my partner and I that he caught it. :shrug:

 

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catsbackr    382
21 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

This should not be a default way of thinking. We need to get in position and do our jobs, not let the player response dictate it.

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That's not what Mussgrass said.  He said to use whats in front of you to make your call.

 

Do you not use player's reaction to judge the high inside, check swing, ball hit something I'm not sure what, pitch?  I think that is all Muss is saying.  And if I'm putting words in your mouth, Muss, please feel free to correct me.

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ALStripes17    556
That's not what Mussgrass said.  He said to use whats in front of you to make your call.
 
Do you not use player's reaction to judge the high inside, check swing, ball hit something I'm not sure what, pitch?  I think that is all Muss is saying.  And if I'm putting words in your mouth, Muss, please feel free to correct me.
See the NCAA clip of HPU dealing with this situation last year in the CWS. Player reaction was down the list of factors that he used to judge HBP.

It is possible to use player reactions as a secondary/tertiary way to judge action. My comment was for it not to be the DEFAULT way of thinking. Players are told to continue play and not anticipate a call. It's unfair to the defense to just default to 'well he kept playing it so it must have hit the ground' and it's unfair to the offense to say 'well he started running to 1B so he must have thought he swung'

If that were the case, the players could umpire their own games based on reactions...

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Mussgrass    20
2 hours ago, catsbackr said:

That's not what Mussgrass said.  He said to use whats in front of you to make your call.

 

Do you not use player's reaction to judge the high inside, check swing, ball hit something I'm not sure what, pitch?  I think that is all Muss is saying.  And if I'm putting words in your mouth, Muss, please feel free to correct me.

That's exactly what I'm saying. The player's reaction is just one thing we can use to help us determine what happened. It can be more of a reliable indicator in some situations and not so much in others.

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Rich Ives    956
1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

I honestly hate that line of thinking for a player or umpire.

On close plays, it's a safe bet for a player to throw it to 1B and not leave a close play in the umpires judgment, which could be wrong. I've seen too many players stop playing on a ball they thought they caught but umpire thought otherwise.

As an umpire, our job is to judge what we see on the play, not player reactions. He either caught it or he didn't. What he does after that, doesn't have a bearing on that

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

Read the OP. F5 "caught" it chest high.   I'm not throwing to 1B if I catch a ball chest high.  I will if I know it bounced.  If an umpire blows a chest high catch he deserves whatever the crowd yells at him.

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