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Walk off walk

Question

Cal Ripken tournament game. Tie game bottom 7.

2 outs runner on 3rd base, 3/2 on batter.

Ball 4 goes to backstop and runner easily scores.

Batter/Runner stops 1/4 way to 1B and is surrounded by team and leaves baseline.

1B coach ends up grabbing B/R by shirt and directs him to 1B.

Should the run count?

 

 

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8 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

(g) (4.11) The score of a regulation game is the total number of runs scored by each team at the moment the game ends. (1) The game ends when the visiting team completes its half of the ninth inning if the home team is ahead. (2) The game ends when the ninth inning is completed, if the visiting team is ahead. (3) If the home team scores the winning run in its half of the ninth inning (or its half of an extra inning after a tie), the game ends immediately when the winning run is scored.

 

We know from other examples that that statement isn't literally true.

 

Now, a few years ago, there was a similar discussion in an NCAA forum.  B1 is BOO.  Ball4, WP.  Runners advance.  Defense properly appeals BOO.  We know the proper batter is out -- but do the runners have to return?  I argued that they did.  Based on an email from Paronto, I was wrong.  (I don't think I have that email any more).  The same logic might apply in the OP.

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1 hour ago, noumpere said:

We know from other examples that that statement isn't literally true.

 

Now, a few years ago, there was a similar discussion in an NCAA forum.  B1 is BOO.  Ball4, WP.  Runners advance.  Defense properly appeals BOO.  We know the proper batter is out -- but do the runners have to return?  I argued that they did.  Based on an email from Paronto, I was wrong.  (I don't think I have that email any more).  The same logic might apply in the OP.

That situation you describe is too far different to try and compare.   In the OP, the winning run had just scored.  "Immediate" is in the rule.   

What did you mean by "other examples"?  The one you provided doesn't fit the bill.   

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10 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

Hmmm....    interesting question...

7.01 (g)(3) reads:

(g) (4.11) The score of a regulation game is the total number of runs scored by each team at the moment the game ends. (1) The game ends when the visiting team completes its half of the ninth inning if the home team is ahead. (2) The game ends when the ninth inning is completed, if the visiting team is ahead. (3) If the home team scores the winning run in its half of the ninth inning (or its half of an extra inning after a tie), the game ends immediately when the winning run is scored.

Based on that, I'd say that the game has ended "immediately" given that the OP indicates that there was R3 only (no runners forced as in a bases loaded play).

This is a very good point. Even if it was bases loaded, the game would end as soon as a runner touched home. Unless R3 walked slowly to home, I would have a hard time believing he did not get there before the whole thing with the BR went down. As soon as R3 touches home, that's game and BR is no longer of any consequence. 

In light of this rule, I have run scored, and game over. 

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36 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

That situation you describe is too far different to try and compare.   In the OP, the winning run had just scored.  "Immediate" is in the rule.   

What did you mean by "other examples"?  The one you provided doesn't fit the bill.   

It comes down to when a run "scores" - by rule a run doesn't score/count if BR makes the third out before reaching first base, or if any forced runners make the third out before reaching their bases.  So, though it may be "immediate", it is still conditional.   The winning run doesn't score until all other conditions are met...only at that point is the game over "immediately".  In a bases loaded scenario with two out, if the batter hits a single to the outfield, all runners are required to get to their bases to complete their forces, and BR must reach first base, for the run to count.

The debate is whether or not the fact that the batter got ball four on that same wild pitch forces the batter to touch first base to validate the run - my argument is that was not the spirit or intent of the rule...the run should count.

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22 minutes ago, Guest cjk said:

This is a very good point. Even if it was bases loaded, the game would end as soon as a runner touched home. Unless R3 walked slowly to home, I would have a hard time believing he did not get there before the whole thing with the BR went down. As soon as R3 touches home, that's game and BR is no longer of any consequence. 

In light of this rule, I have run scored, and game over. 

Just to correct your bases loaded statement, MLBUM added this a few years ago after some MLB umpires might have had the same impression and a grounds person/security person took them off the hook:

""26. COMMENT REGARDING GAME-ENDING PLAYS
When the winning run is scored in the last half inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, with the bases full as the result of any play other that those set forth in 5.08(b) [former 4.09(b)], the ball is in play and runners may be retired. If the third out is a force play, no runs shall score."

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Here’s an example, Mr. BrianC14, of a conditional winning run--

From the 2016 BRD (section 508, p. 326):

Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  If the winning run is awarded home because the ball became dead, such as, but not limited to when a ball is thrown out of play, or when a batted ball is hit out of play for a home run the game will not be over until all runners reach the bases they are awarded to. (WRIM section 5.5.4.a, p. 69)

Example P:  R3 (winning run), R2, one out. The batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop, who looks R3 back to third before throwing to first. The throw sails over the first baseman’s head and out of play.

Ruling:  We would award both runners home and wait for both to advance, or not, before calling the game over. We also require that they both reach their award or be in jeopardy of being called out for abandoning their effort to run the bases.

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2 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Here’s an example, Mr. BrianC14, of a conditional winning run--

From the 2016 BRD (section 508, p. 326):

Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  If the winning run is awarded home because the ball became dead,  [except that's not the case in the OP] such as, but not limited to when a ball is thrown out of play, or when a batted ball is hit out of play for a home run the game will not be over until all runners reach the bases they are awarded to. (WRIM section 5.5.4.a, p. 69)

Example P:  R3 (winning run), R2, one out. The batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop, who looks R3 back to third before throwing to first. The throw sails over the first baseman’s head and out of play.

Ruling:  We would award both runners home and wait for both to advance, or not, before calling the game over. We also require that they both reach their award or be in jeopardy of being called out for abandoning their effort to run the bases.  [This is a base award made to R3 and R2 because the ball was thrown out of play.  In the OP, R3 scored while the ball was in play (live) due to the wild pitch. ]

 

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1 hour ago, stkjock said:

Batter Runner should be called out for Coach assistance, since BR did not reach first base safely, run should not count

Like McGwire was called out on his record-breaking HR when the 1B coach grabbed him and pushed him back to 1B because he missed it?

Oh wait - he wasn't called out.

Why?

Because the assistance rule really means "when the ball is live".

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