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Walk off walk

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Cal Ripken tournament game. Tie game bottom 7.

2 outs runner on 3rd base, 3/2 on batter.

Ball 4 goes to backstop and runner easily scores.

Batter/Runner stops 1/4 way to 1B and is surrounded by team and leaves baseline.

1B coach ends up grabbing B/R by shirt and directs him to 1B.

Should the run count?

 

 

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Batter Runner should be called out for Coach assistance, since BR did not reach first base safely, run should not count

 

edit - after discussions below, I retract the above statement, I will leave it posted as it sparked discussion. 

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Sadly, I agree with stkjock.

Umm -- I'm not sad for agreeing, I'm sad because this is a crappy way to extend the game.  Better umpiring might have prevented it -- the rule indicates the umpire should "direct" the batter to first if he refuses to go; or, the umpire might be able to tell the coach not to "grab B/R by the shirt"

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8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Sadly, I agree with stkjock.

Umm -- I'm not sad for agreeing, I'm sad because this is a crappy way to extend the game.  Better umpiring might have prevented it -- the rule indicates the umpire should "direct" the batter to first if he refuses to go; or, the umpire might be able to tell the coach not to "grab B/R by the shirt"

I was insulted there for a split second before I was able to read the second sentence. :lol:

 

:cheers:

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22 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Like McGwire was called out on his record-breaking HR when the 1B coach grabbed him and pushed him back to 1B because he missed it?

Oh wait - he wasn't called out.

Why?

Because the assistance rule really means "when the ball is live".

a) The ball is live in the OP

b) That's not entirely what the rule means

c) That's not (how I view) what happened.

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2 minutes ago, stkjock said:

@Rich Ives why would the ball still not be live in the OP?

Ohhhh... I think I know the answer to this one!

Because Cal Ripken ball uses Modified OBR, and if/when the winning run is scored by the home team in the bottom of the final inning, the game is over.

Extrapolating further, a Walk is a Live Ball award of 1B to the Batter – no play can be made upon him until he obtains 1B. Between HP and 1B, if he was to head towards the dugout so as to return his bat, or exchange helmets with the on-deck batter, as long as does so in a reasonably timely manner, we have nothing that prohibits that or dictates he must adhere to the 1BL.

So, if R3 dashes in and scores, thus ending the game (see above), and as long as BR doesn't interfere with a play upon R3, what difference does it make how (much) long(er) it takes BR to reach 1B?

 

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27 minutes ago, stkjock said:

@Rich Ives why would the ball still not be live in the OP?

The game is over the moment the winning run scores.  It scored on the WP play, not because of the walk.  The ball is dead.  Whatever the B-R does doesn't matter.

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From the 2015 Cal Ripken rule book:

4.09(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without liability of being put out, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

An exception will be if fans rush onto the field and physically prevent the runner from touching home plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases, the umpires shall award the runner the base because of the obstruction by the fans.

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the offending player shall be called out.

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@Senor Azul - thanks for a cite, however, as I read it, seems to me that's only for situ with the bases loaded?  the OP only had R3.

however, it would imply that both R3 and BR have to advance and touch the next base

 

 

1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

The game is over the moment the winning run scores.  It scored on the WP play, not because of the walk.  The ball is dead.  Whatever the B-R does doesn't matter.

I wasn't making the assumption that it was the end of the game.  I take it from the responses that all CR games are 7 innings?  I'm not familiar with CR rules.

 

Thanks Rich - that makes sense.

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6 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2015 Cal Ripken rule book:

4.09(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without liability of being put out, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

An exception will be if fans rush onto the field and physically prevent the runner from touching home plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases, the umpires shall award the runner the base because of the obstruction by the fans.

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the offending player shall be called out.

That's good information to have,  but it isn't anything close to the OP.

 

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1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

The game is over the moment the winning run scores.  It scored on the WP play, not because of the walk.  The ball is dead.  Whatever the B-R does doesn't matter.

I would have to say that the run scores and agree with Rich. The "assisting a runner rule" would not apply here, as it is to prevent an advantage being given to the runner. With the base being awarded due to ball four, there is no play available, so no advantage can be gained. We have to take in to account the spirit of the law as well. 

The only way I could see this as being called an out, would be if the runner had left the field and entered the dug out, which would be called out for abandonment, not coach interference. 

Since it sounds like 7 innings is max, that would mean once the run scored, game was over and BR was no longer an issue. 

 

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59 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

That's good information to have,  but it isn't anything close to the OP.

Oh, but it is, @BrianC14. This rule's existence in the Cal Ripken books alludes to or creates an applied (mis)interpretation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I _think_ you and I are in the same camp, so...

We see the OP happen (as described). We also see the operative word in the Cal Ripken Rule (CRR, for brevity) as "(BR) refuses". There's also a potential refusal to advance to Home by R3 (why anyone would refuse is beyond me, but still). The entire rule is set up by a Forced scenario (i.e. Bases loaded). And as you said, neither were the bases loaded, nor was there a refusal.

We have to acknowledge this CRR that Azul cited, though, because if we don't (as umpires), then we get blindsided by coaches (or worse, partners) who don't know the full details of the rule, but are ignorantly referencing or misapplying it so as to get what they want...

... which is an "anti-celebration" or "poor sportsmanship" penalty.

"Hey, they're mobbing their teammate for drawing a walk, and my players are on the verge of tears. My pitcher is crying, and my catcher refuses to take his mask off, he's so embarrassed. Look at that other team... all that euphoria for a walk. Wait! He didn't touch first yet! Hey Blue! He didn't touch first yet!"

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24 minutes ago, Guest cjk said:

The only way I could see this as being called an out, would be if the runner had left the field and entered the dug out, which would be called out for abandonment, not coach interference. 

 

So ... BR could be called out for abandonment, and the coach grabbed the shirt and prevented the runner from doing that.  Isn't that pretty much the definition of "physically assists a runner in advancing or returning to a base?" (or whatever the specific words are).

 

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11 minutes ago, noumpere said:

So ... BR could be called out for abandonment, and the coach grabbed the shirt and prevented the runner from doing that.  Isn't that pretty much the definition of "physically assists a runner in advancing or returning to a base?" (or whatever the specific words are).

 

abandonment would require BR leaves field of play. OP said he left the baseline, but did not specify beyond that. I take that to mean he is still in the field. As for the baseline, as we know, that has no bearing the runner unless a play is being made. BR can take any path he wants to get there. 

Since it was ball 4, the BR is not advancing to a base, but was awarded the base. Again, the intent of the rule is to prevent any type of advantage being given by the coach assisting. Since there is no play available to the defense that would result in an out, there can be no advantage gained by the offence.  

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I glossed over the fact that there is only an R3 in the OP. So my earlier post has an extraneous rule citation for this thread. Sorry, guys.

For Mr. stkjock, Babe Ruth/Cal Ripken—age 12 and under play 6-inning regulation games--13 and above play 7-inning games. That can be found on page 19 of the 2015 rule book (in the Local League and Tournament Play Special Rules and Regulations).

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1 hour ago, Guest cjk said:

abandonment would require BR leaves field of play. OP said he left the baseline, but did not specify beyond that. I take that to mean he is still in the field. As for the baseline, as we know, that has no bearing the runner unless a play is being made. BR can take any path he wants to get there. 

Since it was ball 4, the BR is not advancing to a base, but was awarded the base. Again, the intent of the rule is to prevent any type of advantage being given by the coach assisting. Since there is no play available to the defense that would result in an out, there can be no advantage gained by the offence.  

I agree that BR hadn't abandoned yet (Heck, it's impossible for him to abandon).  And, I agree that we're not going to call this desertion in most cases until he proceeds quite a distance from his basepath.

But, it's pretty clear to me that this is what would likely have happened had the coach not intervened.

Had that happened, I might (probably) could be persuaded that the ruling falls under the same guidelines as the play where the bases are loaded, BR hits a single, R1 peels off before reaching second.  Abandonment, but not a force play (and I recognize that BR is not forced to first, but the concept is the same for 99.99999% of the plays -- including this one); defense can still appeal R1 at second to get the out.

Since the coach grabbed BR by the shirt and directed him to first -- this action physically assists the BR by preventing such an appeal (or the call of desertion).  It's this act that must be penalized.

Had the coach just yelled at BR, or got in his way (without touching him) and pointed, or something along those lines, this would be nothing.

The fact that it's an award means nothing -- it prevents the defense from playing on the runner, but it doesn't mean the runner can't be declared out for some sort of baserunning violation.

And, the fact that the winning run has (apparently) scored also means nothing -- if BR proceeded all the way to first, but stepped over the base and then peeled back to his teammates, we'd allow an appeal even though "the game had ended."

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4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Like McGwire was called out on his record-breaking HR when the 1B coach grabbed him and pushed him back to 1B because he missed it?

Oh wait - he wasn't called out.

Why?

Because the assistance rule really means "when the ball is live".

Not pertaining to the OP but your argument about assistance during a live ball is not supported by the McGuire play. He wasn't called out because he wasn't assisted. He was congratulated and then went back to 1B on his own. Unless you have knowledge from one of the game umps that they saw it as you did.

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1 hour ago, noumpere said:

I agree that BR hadn't abandoned yet (Heck, it's impossible for him to abandon).  And, I agree that we're not going to call this desertion in most cases until he proceeds quite a distance from his basepath.

But, it's pretty clear to me that this is what would likely have happened had the coach not intervened.

Had that happened, I might (probably) could be persuaded that the ruling falls under the same guidelines as the play where the bases are loaded, BR hits a single, R1 peels off before reaching second.  Abandonment, but not a force play (and I recognize that BR is not forced to first, but the concept is the same for 99.99999% of the plays -- including this one); defense can still appeal R1 at second to get the out.

Since the coach grabbed BR by the shirt and directed him to first -- this action physically assists the BR by preventing such an appeal (or the call of desertion).  It's this act that must be penalized.

Had the coach just yelled at BR, or got in his way (without touching him) and pointed, or something along those lines, this would be nothing.

The fact that it's an award means nothing -- it prevents the defense from playing on the runner, but it doesn't mean the runner can't be declared out for some sort of baserunning violation.

And, the fact that the winning run has (apparently) scored also means nothing -- if BR proceeded all the way to first, but stepped over the base and then peeled back to his teammates, we'd allow an appeal even though "the game had ended."

taking the argument to the next level, I see your point. That would be consistent with assisting the runner. the rule does specify the coach assisting the runner, so had another player done the same it would have been considered fine. This is not even a play that requires an appeal. Ump should have called BR out when he saw it happen....

I wonder what the outcome was? did the umpire call the BR out? 

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5 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Like McGwire was called out on his record-breaking HR when the 1B coach grabbed him and pushed him back to 1B because he missed it?

Oh wait - he wasn't called out.

Why?

Because the assistance rule really means "when the ball is live".

McGwire hugged the coach before he reached first base...then he ran past first base at which point the coach VERBALLY told him he missed the base - not the same thing at all.

I however agree that the runner scored on a wild pitch.  He wasn't forced to run.  Game is over when R3 touches the plate.  BR shouldn't have to reach first base in this scenario.  It's not like he got a hit, or D3K, where he MUST reach first base at risk of being put out.  He happened to also walk on the same WP that allowed R3 to score - he becomes a runner and advances to first without liability to be put out.  Runners who haven't reached first base yet can't be called for abandonment.

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Here's my $.02 worth.

The run scored as a result of a wild pitch, and has nothing to do with the base on balls....therefore I could not care less what the batter does. 

Game over.

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6 hours ago, noumpere said:

Had that happened, I might (probably) could be persuaded that the ruling falls under the same guidelines as the play where the bases are loaded, BR hits a single, R1 peels off before reaching second.

 

The most significant difference is the fact that the bases weren't loaded.  R3 wasn't forced.  He scored on a WP.  If the count had been 2-2, game is just over.  There is no way on Earth that the intent and spirit of this rule is to penalize the batter who happens to get ball four on that wild pitch, and as he steps out of the box to see his team mate score the winning run, forgets to complete his BB.

If the bases are loaded, by rule (at least in OBR) the runners aren't forced (on a walk) until the BR reaches first base.  If BR never reaches first base, then R1/R2/R3 are not forced to advance, so I get the interpretation to cancel the run in that scenario (though I'm up for a hearty debate on whether or not a wild pitch should negate that, for the same reasons...especially a wild pitch for  ball four that goes out of play)

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Does rule 7.01(g)(3), the game-winning run rule, override or negate the two following rules?

5.05 (6.09) When the Batter Becomes a Runner

(b) (6.08) The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when:

(1) Four “balls” have been called by the umpire;

Rule 5.06(b)(4)(I) Comment (Rule 7.05(i ) Comment): The fact a runner is awarded a base or bases without liability to be put out does not relieve him of the responsibility to touch the base he is awarded and all intervening bases…

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1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Does rule 7.01(g)(3), the game-winning run rule, override or negate the two following rules?

5.05 (6.09) When the Batter Becomes a Runner

(b) (6.08) The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when:

(1) Four “balls” have been called by the umpire;

Rule 5.06(b)(4)(I) Comment (Rule 7.05(i ) Comment): The fact a runner is awarded a base or bases without liability to be put out does not relieve him of the responsibility to touch the base he is awarded and all intervening bases…

Hmmm....    interesting question...

7.01 (g)(3) reads:

(g) (4.11) The score of a regulation game is the total number of runs scored by each team at the moment the game ends. (1) The game ends when the visiting team completes its half of the ninth inning if the home team is ahead. (2) The game ends when the ninth inning is completed, if the visiting team is ahead. (3) If the home team scores the winning run in its half of the ninth inning (or its half of an extra inning after a tie), the game ends immediately when the winning run is scored.

Based on that, I'd say that the game has ended "immediately" given that the OP indicates that there was R3 only (no runners forced as in a bases loaded play).

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With R3 voluntarily scoring while the ball was Live, and therefore the game being over, why are we standing around seeking for an out to negate that?!?!

Good grief! I don't know which is more contemptible, the butt-hurt VTHC whose team can't handle the "embarrassment" of losing on a wild pitch and the HT celebrating like they won the World Series; or, the OOO who has an open ear to their pleas and "plight"???

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