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Two Umpires Make Opposite Call

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To be clear, I've been trained with defined areas of responsibility AND communication. Is what is being recommend here, BU has everything unless called off by PU for a difficult fair foul decision?

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On 8/2/2017 at 7:24 PM, grayhawk said:

This ball was hit in somewhat of a gray area - RF is coming in and towards the line, but the ball never threatened fair/foul

Using Gray's words, I'd say "evident" as opposed to "difficult."

I agree with his policy of BU working inside has ALL outfield flies unless PU calls him off  

My best example is a fly ball hit to RF, F9 starts after it by running toward the line, then fades back toward center, then fades right again and makes the catch — 30 feet from the line!

The first few steps shouldn't dictate who takes the ball.  Only when and if the ball is coming down near a line, should PU call off BU.

 

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Classic example of why Jimmy teaches: "We never want an even number of umpires covering a play!"

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Classic example of why Jimmy teaches: "We never want an even number of umpires covering a play!"
Evans still teaches the V as the area of responsibility for the BU in the two man system. Maximizing The Two Man System shows it that way. The change seem useful to me and I may have had partners propose it but I'd like to know where I can learn more about it.

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1 minute ago, KenBAZ said:

Evans still teaches the V as the area of responsibility for the BU in the two man system. Maximizing The Two Man System shows it that way. The change seem useful to me and I may have had partners propose it but I'd like to know where I can learn more about it.

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All of the manuals teach the "V" either in name or referencing the direction the fielders are going. But if you have experienced a tweener in actual practice you might adjust how you actually deal with the "V" and put communication as the priority.

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Thanks Jim, I hope I do prioritize communication in every situation. I am not arguing against this change in SOP but rather asking for training resources. It's definitely a situation where I have experienced different perceptions from my partners.

Now if you guys can help me when my BU in A turns, takes three steps out to right field then tried to come in and take a pivot, or rim to take the BR to 2nd base. All without saying a word

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3 hours ago, KenBAZ said:

Thanks Jim, I hope I do prioritize communication in every situation. I am not arguing against this change in SOP but rather asking for training resources. It's definitely a situation where I have experienced different perceptions from my partners.

Now if you guys can help me when my BU in A turns, takes three steps out to right field then tried to come in and take a pivot, or rim to take the BR to 2nd base. All without saying a word emoji3.png

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Pregame that situation would (obviously) have helped.... maybe a postgame where he buys the beer for performing that feat, thereby putting you in the gutter.   I had that happen to me a couple of times this summer, it's pretty aggravating.

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I don't view this as a mechanics change.It's more of a communication issue. The simple"PU has balls hit to RF that move F9 to his left" simply isn't enough. The "change",for me and my partners, is more like "F9 just moving to his left a few steps isn't enough for PU to call off BU." BU can still take the catch/no catch on a ball that moves F9 a little left, which releases PU to cover 3B.

16 hours ago, VolUmp said:

My best example is a fly ball hit to RF, F9 starts after it by running toward the line, then fades back toward center, then fades right again and makes the catch — 30 feet from the line!

The first few steps shouldn't dictate who takes the ball.  Only when and if the ball is coming down near a line, should PU call off BU.

I think PU needs to call off BU sooner.   I think if PU is going to take the ball, his communication should be immediate. No harm if F9 starts hard towards the line then then moves back to his right. BU has to know ASAP he's got R1 into 3B. If there's ANY Chance of a fair foul call, PU should call off BU right away.

This isn't like Pause/read/react from "A" with the bases empty. BU has more time there to read F9, because a good PU, even if he's not going to follow the BR because BU doesn't go out,  he should still be busting out to the 1B side of the infield. Then he can see if he needs to take the runner (BU went out)..He's already out in the infield. He should be there either way. That gives BU the time it takes for PU to get to that spot between the mound and 1B before deciding if he's going out.  Of course this doesn't apply to balls down the RF line. There should be no "pause or read there..it's automatic BU is going out.

In the R1 situation, BU needs to know quicker if he's taking R1 to 3rd. So I have no problem with PU calling for the ball earlier and erroring on the side of caution.

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In spite of mechanics, review, pregaming, and attempted communication (I've been in many games where I was shouting to my partner throughout a play and s/he never heard me), this particular situation still happens, and we have to be able to resolve with the last-ditch safety-net mechanic of LOOKING AT EACH OTHER before someone makes a call.

We recognize that we kicked the rotation, we both hesitate, and then one umpire SELLS IT HARD.  Then we both refocus and move on.

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I've pregamed this stuff with guys they shake their heads in the affirmative, "yep, yep, sounds good" 

It happens five minutes into the game and then they go and do the opposite. 

Can't make it up. 

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Just like all the guys who go to a one-day camp to learn three-man, and then they boast to the world that they now are an expert in three-man mechanics.

Then comes the day when we are assigned to the same crew in the postseason, they feel like a pregame is beneath them, and we end up running into them all night because they don't know the difference between counterclockwise and clockwise.

It's work. It's a matter of pride. It's a matter of professionalism. And, it's a source of embarrassment.

When I first learned three-man, I went out of my way to find games that I could join for no pay, just to give us practice at three-man, so when a big game came up, it would be engrained and habitual. 

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3 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Just like all the guys who go to a one-day camp to learn three-man, and then they boast to the world that they now are an expert in three-man mechanics.

Then comes the day when we are assigned to the same crew in the postseason, they feel like a pregame is beneath them, and we end up running into them all night because they don't know the difference between counterclockwise and clockwise.

It's work. It's a matter of pride. It's a matter of professionalism. And, it's a source of embarrassment.

When I first learned three-man, I went out of my way to find games that I could join for no pay, just to give us practice at three-man, so when a big game came up, it would be engrained and habitual. 

"Expert"    We just go out on all the fly balls and then work two man. "Expert" lol

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16 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

"Expert"    We just go out on all the fly balls and then work two man. "Expert" lol

3-man - We don't go out on all fly balls - just the same trouble balls as 2-man.

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16 minutes ago, maineump said:

3-man - We don't go out on all fly balls - just the same trouble balls as 2-man.

I know...I was attempting to be humorous. 

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23 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I know...I was attempting to be humorous. 

Sorry man, sometimes I have a hard time telling on here.

 - the word EXPERT drives me nuts. :) 

Ex = something former,   spurt = drip under pressure.

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Just now, maineump said:

Sorry man, sometimes I have a hard time telling on here.

 - the word EXPERT drives me nuts. :) 

Ex = something former,   spurt = drip under pressure.

No worries. Tone is tough.

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