Register or Sign In to remove these ads
hbk314

Two Umpires Make Opposite Call

41 posts in this topic

This video was posted by the NFHS in April of 2013.

 

I didn't see a thread where it had been discussed and thought it could provide an interesting discussion.

I've been out of umpiring for about four years, but I'm still interested in proper mechanics as well as what the best way to handle this situation ultimately is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Register or Sign In to remove these ads

The proper mechanic is for PU to take this call.

Given that there are conflicting calls, the UI will decide which call to accept, given the positioning, the likelihood of which call is correct, and whose call it was supposed to be.

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rotation with R1 (or R1 and R3) is PU takes the play on R1 if he commits to 3B on a clean batted ball that leaves the infield.  BU abandons R1 once he commits to 3B and picks up the BR for a play at 2B or 1B. 

UMPIRING 101...this should have been part of their pre-game discussion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How did BU not see PU? Even if PU didn't communicate he had 3rd, he was right there. Some kind of state playoff game I assume? wow. :shakehead:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On top of the incorrect rotation by the BU, he was still moving into position as he signals the call.  In addition to that, he would have been completely hosed if BR had attempted 2B and had to get a call there.... which is the reason for this rotation.   What a mess.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The following is for learning purposes only:

1.  Remove your mask with your left hand.
2.  When BU is inside, he has all fly balls in the outfield until PU calls him off.  Did PU communicate anything to BU on the fly ball?  I would think not, since PU came up the 3B line to take the play at third.  If he was taking the fly ball, then he should say, "I'm on the line" to indicate that BU has the play at third.  I would not have called BU of on this fly ball since it wasn't threatening fair/foul.
3.  If PU didn't call BU off on the fly ball, then after seeing catch/no catch, BU should glance over his shoulder to see if PU is coming up the line for the play at third.  If PU is coming up, then BU should move to cover the BR.  BU should watch the touches at 2nd by R1 and at 1st by the BR (PU can also help with touches as he comes up the line).
4.  PU should verbal to his partner, "I've got third if he comes" while running up to the library.  When he sees ball, runner and fielder (a play), he should verbal, "I've got third" and come inside and be taking the play from the cutout.  Be prepared to bust home in fair territory if there's an overthrow at third.
5.  BE SET for the call.  Neither umpire was properly set.
6.  The safe mechanic is sloppy.

 

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

The following is for learning purposes only:

1.  Remove your mask with your left hand.
2.  When BU is inside, he has all fly balls in the outfield until PU calls him off.  Did PU communicate anything to BU on the fly ball?  I would think not, since PU came up the 3B line to take the play at third.  If he was taking the fly ball, then he should say, "I'm on the line" to indicate that BU has the play at third.  I would not have called BU of on this fly ball since it wasn't threatening fair/foul.
3.  If PU didn't call BU off on the fly ball, then after seeing catch/no catch, BU should glance over his shoulder to see if PU is coming up the line for the play at third.  If PU is coming up, then BU should move to cover the BR.  BU should watch the touches at 2nd by R1 and at 1st by the BR (PU can also help with touches as he comes up the line).
4.  PU should verbal to his partner, "I've got third if he comes" while running up to the library.  When he sees ball, runner and fielder (a play), he should verbal, "I've got third" and come inside and be taking the play from the cutout.  Be prepared to bust home in fair territory if there's an overthrow at third.
5.  BE SET for the call.  Neither umpire was properly set.
6.  The safe mechanic is sloppy.

Excellent, Gray, as always.  They say we should never assume, but if you signal the rotation at the top of the At-Bat, and your partner(s) acknowledge, the BU really should be able to at least "anticipate" or "surmise" that PU will be at 3B for this play. Yes, he may screw up, but that's the purpose of signals ... to remind yourself and your partners not to.

I'll say mechanics-wise, BU gets 80% of the blame. I'll say PU most likely didn't give it a 100% hustle effort to get in position, and probably didn't verbalized at all.

No clue on the call. Video not clear or close enough. If I'm PU, and I DID hustle and I DID get a great look, and I DID come set, it's easy. We are going with my call. In this sitch, start digging a trench for both umps to hide in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been there and it sucked.

Pre-gamed it - If R1 and and a hit to the outfield, I, PU, will take 3rd and say so. R1, hit to left center, I bust to to 3rd base cutout while yelling "I've got third." I'm in the cutout and start to signal safe when BU comes up with a big "out" call. I try to stifle my safe call but this was a men's league and they knew whose call it was and saw that I was about to make a safe call. Partner and I confer and he is totally kicking himself for jumping on the call. We go with the safe call but get lots of grief.

S&@t happens, do the best you can, if you F up learn from it but put it aside and focus on the game in front of you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What bothers me is,this seems to be a pretty important playoff game. Things like this should be routine to anybody working a state playoff game of this caliber. Mechanics 101.

I've seen it way too much this season in high school. The crews I've seen live, the crews I've seen on some state finals on TV, the stories and videos I've seen of calls on the internet from high profile state games......

The "good ole boys" network is alive and well in way too many places. :shakehead:

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We use 6-Man at all five levels of the State Champ Games.

I'd hate to see 2 umps call out and 1 call safe just because they're bored and no one really knows 6-man ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, VolUmp said:

We use 6-Man at all five levels of the State Champ Games.

I'd hate to see 2 umps call out and 1 call safe just because they're bored and no one really knows 6-man ...

Can't think of a six man rotation screwup that would put 3 umps at a base. But with no one on or R3 only there are three guys in the outfield that could poach one catch no catch call. That would be a major lack of preparation or awareness though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Can't think of a six man rotation screwup that would put 3 umps at a base. But with no one on or R3 only there are three guys in the outfield that could poach one catch no catch call. That would be a major lack of preparation or awareness though.

... or at least 3 umpires who are used to doing nothing but Fed, being UIC (at their own previous games), and pedantic upon the belief that, "That call is mine."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, MadMax said:

... or at least 3 umpires who are used to doing nothing but Fed, being UIC (at their own previous games), and pedantic upon the belief that, "That call is mine."

Don't tell me something like that happened?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MadMax said:

... or at least 3 umpires who are used to doing nothing but Fed, being UIC (at their own previous games), and pedantic upon the belief that, "That call is mine."

:eek:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Don't tell me something like that happened?

 

1 hour ago, BrianC14 said:

:eek:

No, not saying it has. It is more likely to happen, though, in a Fed-rules HS game because of the elements I've listed, combined with unfamiliarity of working in #>2-man with guys you don't know.

Look what happened here in the OP! That's a playoff game! You can't tell me that those two umpires ever worked a game together. They certainly didn't have a thorough pre-game session. No, instead, they were put together by an assigner based on a known-only-to-him value system, met in the brief interval of time before the game with the assumption that since they were using Fed-based 2-man, they'd be just fine.

15 hours ago, Richvee said:

What bothers me is,this seems to be a pretty important playoff game. Things like this should be routine to anybody working a state playoff game of this caliber. Mechanics 101.

I've seen it way too much this season in high school. The crews I've seen live, the crews I've seen on some state finals on TV, the stories and videos I've seen of calls on the internet from high profile state games......

The "good ole boys" network is alive and well in way too many places. :shakehead:

Good grief, Rich, it's like you're describing Wisconsin!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MadMax said:

 

No, not saying it has. It is more likely to happen, though, in a Fed-rules HS game because of the elements I've listed, combined with unfamiliarity of working in #>2-man with guys you don't know.

Look what happened here in the OP! That's a playoff game! You can't tell me that those two umpires ever worked a game together. They certainly didn't have a thorough pre-game session. No, instead, they were put together by an assigner based on a known-only-to-him value system, met in the brief interval of time before the game with the assumption that since they were using Fed-based 2-man, they'd be just fine.

Good grief, Rich, it's like you're describing Wisconsin!

How does FED based 2 man factor in to it? That R1 rotation seems standard in all codes. What isn't standard is FED and many other code umpires possibly knowing what they should do. It varies from state to state and chapter to chapter.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's very possible that they had a very thorough pregame, but made one critical mistake.  I know some guys out there still use "When inside, BU has "the cone" and PU has the lines" for their fly ball coverages.  This play is a PERFECT example of why that's a horrible idea.  This ball was hit in somewhat of a gray area - RF is coming in and towards the line, but the ball never threatened fair/foul.  If this crew pregamed "the cone," then it's quite possible that BU thought PU was taking the fly ball and was on the line, while PU thought that BU was taking it which allowed PU to rotate.

If you are using "the cone" or "the V" or whatever you want to call it, I recommend that you stop using it.  The superior mechanic when BU is inside is for BU to take ALL fly balls in the outfield until PU calls him off.  PU should only call him off when PU is straddling the line for a possible fair/foul call.  I would much rather have BU take a short fly ball that takes F9 in and toward the line (where no fair/foul call will be needed) because he is much closer and has a great angle.  This also ensures that the crew is effectively communicating which helps prevent disasters like we see in the video.

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

It's very possible that they had a very thorough pregame, but made one critical mistake.  I know some guys out there still use "When inside, BU has "the cone" and PU has the lines" for their fly ball coverages.  This play is a PERFECT example of why that's a horrible idea.  This ball was hit in somewhat of a gray area - RF is coming in and towards the line, but the ball never threatened fair/foul.  If this crew pregamed "the cone," then it's quite possible that BU thought PU was taking the fly ball and was on the line, while PU thought that BU was taking it which allowed PU to rotate.

If you are using "the cone" or "the V" or whatever you want to call it, I recommend that you stop using it.  The superior mechanic when BU is inside is for BU to take ALL fly balls in the outfield until PU calls him off.  PU should only call him off when PU is straddling the line for a possible fair/foul call.  I would much rather have BU take a short fly ball that takes F9 in and toward the line (where no fair/foul call will be needed) because he is much closer and has a great angle.  This also ensures that the crew is effectively communicating which helps prevent disasters like we see in the video.

You (BU) have L and RF coming in or toward CF. I have either going hard to foul line. You have tweeners unless you hear me call you off. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You (BU) have L and RF coming in or toward CF. I have either going hard to foul line. You have tweeners unless you hear me call you off. 

That still leaves the possibility of the two umpires reading the play differently.  BU taking every fly ball until PU calls him off ensures coverage every time, and by only one umpire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, grayhawk said:

It's very possible that they had a very thorough pregame, but made one critical mistake.  I know some guys out there still use "When inside, BU has "the cone" and PU has the lines" for their fly ball coverages.  This play is a PERFECT example of why that's a horrible idea.  This ball was hit in somewhat of a gray area - RF is coming in and towards the line, but the ball never threatened fair/foul.  If this crew pregamed "the cone," then it's quite possible that BU thought PU was taking the fly ball and was on the line, while PU thought that BU was taking it which allowed PU to rotate.

If you are using "the cone" or "the V" or whatever you want to call it, I recommend that you stop using it.  The superior mechanic when BU is inside is for BU to take ALL fly balls in the outfield until PU calls him off.  PU should only call him off when PU is straddling the line for a possible fair/foul call.  I would much rather have BU take a short fly ball that takes F9 in and toward the line (where no fair/foul call will be needed) because he is much closer and has a great angle.  This also ensures that the crew is effectively communicating which helps prevent disasters like we see in the video.

I've made this a priority in my pre games this year.

If I'm PU I'll say, "You take all fly balls when you're in the middle UNLESS I call you off. And that's only going to be on Flyballs with fair/foul possibilities. You'll hear me"

Similar if I'm BU..."From B or C I'm taking all fly balls UNLESS you call me off.So please communicate you're taking the ball."

Bottom line is on field communication is critical. Looks like there was a lack of that in the OP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

That still leaves the possibility of the two umpires reading the play differently.  BU taking every fly ball until PU calls him off ensures coverage every time, and by only one umpire.

Among my cohort it does not but if you want to qualify it for other cohorts as you and rich do it's a good idea.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been taught to use the "V" and PU communicates on all flyballs he is taking. "I'm on the line" or "I've got the ball". Is there a manual teaching this BU gets everything PU doesn't call approach?

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, KenBAZ said:

I've been taught to use the "V" and PU communicates on all flyballs he is taking. "I'm on the line" or "I've got the ball". Is there a manual teaching this BU gets everything PU doesn't call approach?

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
 

I don't know if there's a manual, but it's been widely taught to me and by me.  Intra-crew communication, both oral and non- is an important part of what we do.  Just turning around and running tio a spot is not sufficient communication in this play (and many others)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of good info here. When I umpired up until around four years ago, I too used the V on fly balls from inside. I like the BU taking everything unless called off because it forces the kind of mindset and communication that could prevent this situation from happening.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now